astrodog at gmail.com
Mon Feb 14 07:57:48 PST 2005
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:37:04 +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg
<listsub at 401.cx> wrote:
> Chris Zumbrunn wrote:
> > On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
> >> What the *word* trademark has to do with this discussion I do not
> >> understand. We have afaik never been discussing the name of the
> >> project, have we?
> > Because the FreeBSD project owns trademarks for the word "FREEBSD" it
> > doesn't need to protect a specific graphical design.
> If the specific graphical design is the official logo of FreeBSD,
> it should of course be protected.
> You might not be aware that our beloved Beastie is used as a logo
> by a company that manufacturers condoms. I do not like that, but
> since its officially not our logo, I cant really do anything
> about it. McKusick might be able to do something, but I leave
> that up to him.
A condom manufacturer? So? Somehow, I can't see an IT manager going...
"Oh! We can't use this! This logo was on the condom I used last
> >> You can produce all the success stories, white papers, TCO and ROI
> >> numbers, stats and graphs and commercial crap you want. As long as it
> >> looks like something a bunch of teenagers slapped together in MS
> >> Paint, you will not get media coverage and no serious company will
> >> listen to you! The facts may be correct, but if presented in a bad
> >> way, nobody will care about them.
If you put those materials together, and don't use a damn crayon, they
present themselves for the most part. They're raw text. Beastie being
on the header or not is irrelevent.
> > Agreed.
I'd like to point out for a moment here, that the actual CODE behind
Linux, let alone the logo, was slapped together by someone who was
almost a teenager, in a space smaller than a garage.
Let me reinterate. The REAL work that needs to be done here isn't some
logo. Its the real studies, the proof, that FreeBSD stands on its
technical merits. People might not like to believe this, but suits
listen, when you can show them how those technical merits effect the
> >> Im not a programmer. I cant contribute to the project in form of code.
> >> Im not rich, so I cant really contribute in forms of donations or
> >> hardware either. However, I, and many like me, are willing to
> >> contribute time and effort in trying to improve FreeBSD's image, so
> >> that the people that do know how to code can go back to doing exactly
> >> that without having to worry about things like PR and marketing. If I
> >> can spend one day on marketing to save even a few hours of a
> >> programmers time so he can spend it programming, I think its worth it.
> >> Dont you?
When you raise this debate, it takes the time of programmers to
respond, because there are certainly opinions on that side of the
fence, on where to take this. In as far as code goes, I wasn't a
programmer until I started working on FreeBSD. The PR stuff, once
again, isn't a logo. Its the REAL WORK. The case studies, the return
on investment numbers, the total cost of ownership stuff.... THAT is
what suits care about. Not, "Gee, was this on the condom I used?"
> > Yes! Sure I do! I just think there is to much talk about a redesign
> > and not enough action - don't you agree with that?
> Fully agree, and believe me, Im trying to make a change.
> As we speak, I have photoshop running, working on several
> different types of logos. Just last night, I was in a discussion
> with other people sharing my thoughts on the subject, and we are
> making a serious attempt at getting organized. However, we are
> too few to really matter, and need all the help we can get. And
> as long as we are meet by nothing but hostality everytime we make
> a suggestion, it doesnt really matter how much material we
> produce, does it?
> Hence, Im trying to keep the discussion alive.
> >> If you could show me one important thing that needs to be done that I
> >> am capable of doing, and that would really help the project, let me
> >> know and I will drop the logo debate and attend to that instead. I
> >> have not been able to find such a thing, therefor Im still trying to
> >> show the world what a great os FreeBSD really is, but frankly, the
> >> unwillingness of some people to accept that help really starts to wear
> >> me down.
Advocate FreeBSD. Do the research needed to get ROI numbers. Research
how FreeBSD makes fincancial sense for a business.
> > Either a new separate freebsd.com home page or the current freebsd.org
> > home page will need to include links to tons of good marketing
> > material? Where is all that material? Can you collect the bits and
> > pieces that could be used? Maybe create some yourself?
> Trust me, work are being done in all those areas. But as long as
> we dont have the support of the community and more importantly
> the project, the hours we spend on this is a waste of time.
> Im not trying to get permission to improve freebsd's image, that
> I will continue to do with or without explicit permission.
> What I am trying to do is raise some help or atleast support for
> what I and others have already started.
No offense to core, but if you think this material won't be useful,
without community and core support, you're nuts. This isn't code. No
one must approve it to be committed. Even if its AGAINST FreeBSD,
there's pretty much nothing the community and project can do about it.
Put together the materials, and if they are useful, I trust core will
find them a home. If they aren't, they won't. Technical Merit extends
beyond code, to all aspects of FreeBSD in my opinion. If something is
good, it gets used. If it isn't, it doesn't.
Industry rags put together benchmarks, TCO numbers, and ROI numbers,
with and without the permission of the OS's developers all the time.
Those numbers are certainly looked at, sometimes with more credibility
than what the developers themselves put out.
--- Harrison Grundy
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