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[Jo Rhett]

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Jo Rhett wrote:
>> And my e-mails have always discussed ways to get more resources.   
>> Recently we even had a group of people trying to arrange for more  
>> explicit corporate support for testing and release process.  For  
>> some reason unclear to me, not a single developer has stepped up  
>> and said "Great.  Here's how we could use you..."  The entire  
>> concept of getting *more resources* is the elephant in the room  
>> that everyone seems intent to avoid considering.

On Sep 18, 2008, at 12:22 PM, Robert Watson wrote:
> No, we're just waiting for you to go ahead and do it.

Um, how?  I suspect you're being sarcastic, but I'll take this at  
straight value.  I have repeatedly said "I could commit X resources,  
and I know others who are likewise willing to make a proposal for the  
same with their employer, if our efforts could help improve Y problem."

Not a single person, *not one*, has ever taken the proposal seriously  
enough to sit down and discuss with me what kind of resources are  
necessary to solve this problem.  Seriously, go back and read every  
reply to me on this or the other thread.   Every one says "We aren't  
going to do it."

> No, we'd love it if more people were paid to work on things like  
> this, but there are two practical problems: (1) finding people, and  
> (2) paying them.

At the moment I will only speak for myself, so let's start there.   I  
write code.  I do integration and testing for a living.  I currently  
maintain a number of ports, including cfengine -- which I personally  
added the PKGMGR code to for FreeBSD support.  My employer is paying  
my salary, and is willing to dedicate some of my time to the FreeBSD  
project as a whole.  (already does in fact, on the table is to  
increase that amount)

(1) you've found me and (2) I'm already being paid.

There are others in the same situation.

> All of us are busy people -- we have jobs, we have houses with  
> mortgages, etc, and those of us who are already spending a lot of  
> time on FreeBSD are probably pretty maxed out without adding more to  
> our plates.  You seem to have a lot of energy to burn sending e-mail  
> about how to improve the world, and I think what the rest of us  
> would like to see is that energy get turned to the more practical  
> part of the problem.

As would I.  If we could focus on how to improve the situation which  
has been very well described, we'd be doing something.  I don't think  
you have any idea how frustrating it has been -- I'm here.  I'm ready  
to help.  We need to determine how to do this... and nobody will even  
discuss the problems with me.

(if this was a port or a single component then I'd just go run away  
and do it myself.  But the release process is obviously much more  
complex and I couldn't possibly replicate it or extend it in any  
fashion from the outside)

> If you are literally standing there with money that you can't figure  
> out how to spend, contact the FreeBSD Foundation Board with a  
> specific proposal regarding the amount of money and what you're  
> trying to accomplish.  Perhaps we can help you identify people who  
> would take the money, companies that might want to be involved, help  
> provide some matching funding, etc.  However, it needs to be at  
> least a strawman concrete proposal, because waving hands only gets  
> you so far.  And it has to be something worth taking time away from  
> all the other things busy people get up to in life, such as  
> optimizing network stacks, fixing file system bugs, supporting  
> releases, etc, or the endeavour has hurt rather than helped.


 From our experience, there is a lot more money than there is people's  
time to address the problem.  (as you note above and in the final  
sentence here)  I'm trying to offer something -- more people, already  
paid, to provide more assistance.  But since this involves the release  
process, we'd have to be integrated into the effort to be useful.

FYI: this message is the first I've seen that is going somewhere  
good.  I hope you'll take what I am saying seriously.  I'm going to  
stop replying to many of the other subthreads because they aren't  
going anywhere good, and I'm probably replying too often anyway.

-- 
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source  
and other randomness