freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 875, Issue 10

Alexandra Rumenova alexrd4study at gmail.com
Thu Mar 25 15:54:16 UTC 2021


Hi,

I don't understand if you have lost the term on reinstall?

On Saturday, March 20, 2021, <freebsd-questions-request at freebsd.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Mohammad Noureldin)
>    2. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Jerry)
>    3. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Aryeh Friedman)
>    4. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
>       (Mohammad Noureldin)
>    5. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Jerry)
>    6. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Tomasz CEDRO)
>    7. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Jerry)
>    8. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Steve O'Hara-Smith)
>    9. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
>       (Mohammad Noureldin)
>   10. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
>       (Steve O'Hara-Smith)
>   11. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Mohammad Noureldin)
>   12. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Aryeh Friedman)
>   13. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Valeri Galtsev)
>   14. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
>       (Valeri Galtsev)
>   15. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Valeri Galtsev)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:01:58 +0100
> From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad at thelightbird.com>
> To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID:
>         <CAAQ96Dy2D_gM7a4ZTc4d54EMyBRHxhHLfKUyJZcS
> AtsvX3+ZaA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am new to this mailing list, using FreeBSD/*BSD on and off. Joined the
> mailing list because I have a couple of project ideas that I want to build
> on top of *BSD.
>
> Though I am new, and maybe relative to many others here I am a newbie,
> allow me to comment on all the aspects addressed (so far) in this email
> thread:
>
> - "It is easy to build a new (custom) kernel", "Unix is made by technical
> people for technical people", etc:
>
> Though historically it is true that Unix like systems are made by technical
> people for technical people, it doesn't mean that it has to stay like this.
> IMHO, such motto causes a great piece of Engineering like *BSD to loose
> ground for other Unix like systems, namely Linux and all it's Distros. Not
> that I am a Linux hatter, I have respect to both.
>
> Related to that, I don't believe that it is a good message to FreeBSD
> users, that if you don't know how to build a new kernel, then there is no
> place for you here. IMHO, this really hurts the image of the community of
> FreeBSD specially in the eyes of new commers. Notice these email messages
> are archived.
>
> - About the problem reported:
>
> Thanks for all who went through the long list of comments on that PR and
> explained in brief that it is a USB controller/HW problem.
>
> In that respect, I do agree with Jerry and others wondering how other OS(s)
> can manage running on the same HW (in case that has been proven) ? I
> believe it worths looking at that. I would have volunteered to dig deeper
> into that, but I know I don't have the required experience (unless someone
> is willing to mentor me ? :) )
>
> And responding to that:"OK, just shut up and go install another OS", is not
> a community building attitude at all.
>
> And for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a second that Jerry is
> lazy or not skilled enough, helping him and fixing the problem or clearly
> explaining a solution without bashing him, is not just for Jerry, it is for
> the whole community, for the current and new members who will be interested
> to join in the future.
>
> Jerry, I am curious, did you have time to try one the suggestions,
> specially running FreeBSD on a VM to see if it still suffers from the same
> problem ?
>
> You all have a great day/evening
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:30:00 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated:
> > >On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf at riseup.net>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> > >> >Void uses a runit init system with no systemd
> > >>
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For
> > >> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux
> > >> without systemd is a bottomless pit.
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
> > >> >Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you
> > >> >should not be using any Unix variant
> > >>
> > >> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the
> > >> kernel might be less effort, than migrating to another operating
> > >> system. If you would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get
> > >> used to systemd. Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you
> > >> chose a Linux distro that doesn't use systemd, you likely will
> > >> experience all kinds of trouble, if you want to customize your
> > >> install.
> > >
> > >I used that tone because it really is simple and if you can't/won't
> > >recompile the kernel before throwing the baby out despite with the bath
> > >water then you really don't have the skills/desire needed to use Unix
> > >effectively...  Just to show how trivial it really is
> > >
> > >1. Edit /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/GENERIC (or i386 instead of amd64 if
> > >your still using it) to comment out the xhci line (line 327 in
> > >12.2-RELASE-pl3) to remove USB 3.0 support
> > >2. cd /usr/src
> > >3. make kernel
> > >4. etcupdate
> > >5. reboot
> > >
> > >Done.... how hard is that?
> >
> > I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not
> > install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation
> > of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the
> > screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum.
> >
> > By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the
> > use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better.
> >
> > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never
> > were able to get it right.
> >
> > --
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:38:08 -0400
> From: Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net>
> To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <20210320083808.00000cb1 at seibercom.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated:
> >Hi,
> >
> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels at kreme.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a serious
> >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller
> >> hardware.
> >>
> >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a
> >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID.
> >>
> >
> >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating Systems
> >manage to work on the same HW ?
>
> There are a number of possibilities.
>
> 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities.
>
> 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software
> and hardware and are smart enough to work around it.
>
> This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective
> controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is
> assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the
> defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it?
>
> The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes
> this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect.
>
> --
> Jerry
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:41:31 -0400
> From: Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman at gmail.com>
> To: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions at freebsd.org>
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID:
>         <CAGBxaXnyLqHUu6Vu_zAXU8kr135_uXd-PTyCx8sL8rzoukMyaQ at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 AM Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
>
> > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never
> > were able to get it right.
> >
>
> The bottom line for many people on the list is this must be the tenth or
> twentif time you have complained about this same exact bug across multiple
> threads and have absolutely refused to lift a finger to fix it except
> complain about how bad FreeBSD is compared to Linux.   If Linux is so much
> better, STFU and just switch or get off your lazy ass and actually try to
> lend a hand.   Either way the reason many people are being so rude to you
> is at best you refuse to put in any of the work required to fix it and at
> worst you are purposely being a troll by even making yet another
> thread/post about the same bug you have rehashed many many times before on
> this list so that you have a whipping boy to show your hatred towards
> FreeBSD with.
>
> --
> Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:45:13 +0100
> From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad at thelightbird.com>
> To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID:
>         <CAAQ96DwosgKxnbU=itPRWfmAjhzHcoSbRonq8_B24=xAo9
> MrxA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi Jerry,
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 13:38 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated:
> > >Hi,
> > >
> > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels at kreme.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> > >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a serious
> > >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller
> > >> hardware.
> > >>
> > >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a
> > >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID.
> > >>
> > >
> > >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating Systems
> > >manage to work on the same HW ?
> >
> > There are a number of possibilities.
> >
> > 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities.
> >
> > 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software
> > and hardware and are smart enough to work around it.
> >
> > This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective
> > controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is
> > assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the
> > defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it?
> >
> > The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes
> > this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect.
> >
>
> Hi Jerry,
>
> I do understand your frustrations, but if you allow me, it is not a reason
> to attack the FreeBSD community and it's developers. Let's please focus on
> facts and possible solutions.
>
> As stated in this thread (and another one), did you have time to try any of
> the proposed tests ?
>
> Looking forward to your reply
>
>
> > --
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:20:23 -0400
> From: Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net>
> To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <20210320092023.000015c8 at seibercom.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:41:31 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated:
> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 AM Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
> >
> >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they
> >> never were able to get it right.
> >>
> >
> >The bottom line for many people on the list is this must be the tenth
> >or twentif time you have complained about this same exact bug across
> >multiple threads and have absolutely refused to lift a finger to fix
> >it except complain about how bad FreeBSD is compared to Linux.   If
> >Linux is so much better, STFU and just switch or get off your lazy ass
> >and actually try to lend a hand.   Either way the reason many people
> >are being so rude to you is at best you refuse to put in any of the
> >work required to fix it and at worst you are purposely being a troll
> >by even making yet another thread/post about the same bug you have
> >rehashed many many times before on this list so that you have a
> >whipping boy to show your hatred towards FreeBSD with.
>
> Actually, you are the only asshole that seems to have a bug up his ass.
> Maybe if you took the swastika out of your ass, you wouldn't be such an
> annoying kibitzer.
>
> --
> Jerry
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:20:33 +0100
> From: Tomasz CEDRO <tomek at cedro.info>
> To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List <freebsd-questions at freebsd.org>
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID:
>         <CAM8r67DKMc73Wn+Qy8m2kPAHn+2-=ALKRNQDvuxCqFAPFrqZiQ at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
>
> > I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not
> > install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation
> > of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the
> > screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum.
> >
> > By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the
> > use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better.
> >
> > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never
> > were able to get it right.
> >
> > --
> > Jerry
>
>
>
> Hey Jerry :-)
>
> Please just rebuild and install new kernel, at least to see if that fixes
> your problem :-)
>
> This is a standard procedure when you find a problem, it seems identified,
> workaround seems available, a least try if that works for you :-)
>
> I also use custom compliled kernel to get my Touchpad working on a
> non-standard configuration. Until fix is ready and does not break
> configuration for others I need to work that way because this is a problem
> with _my_setup_. It seems that your problem seems similar.
>
> Look on the other hand you are helping others not to have this problem in
> future.. developers are going through this way everyday and we usually have
> broken or incomplete setup just to help others not to have such problems.
> With new hardware showing up faster and faster, using their own standards,
> or enforcing linux like solutions thing are and will get even worse. This
> is not really the issue with FreeBSD, it only gets impacted by this
> "bleeding edge" approach around :-)
>
> Because of drivers I have chosen Linux over FreeBSD around 1999 on my first
> desktop PC. Then when Linux kernel api started changing with every minor
> release, and when the stable USB stack was created by HPS, I have abandoned
> Linux for good and FreeBSD is my ultimate OS of the choice. I even prefer
> FreeBSD over OSX/macOS. The problem of quickly changing things and breaking
> compatibility is the Linux by design. You will find many more problems like
> this over there. We are experiencing this kind of issues here because world
> has changed that way unfortunately.
>
> I can see three effective solutions here:
> 1. Use Alt+F2 to switch away from terminal flood and recompile your kernel.
> 2. Maybe XHCI/USB3.0 controller can/could be disabled at runtime in
> bootloader so it wont be active and the workaround can be ready with no
> kernel recompile.
> 3. Provide a hardware and development fee for a person that is willing to
> fix the problem for you. This will cost time and money but there is a
> chance that you will get the fix one day just using freebsd-update :-)
>
> Free Softwate is free to use, but is really cost developers life time and
> all other technical resources and experiences. Just imagine how many
> problems of this kind developers have everyday. Most of them work for free
> in their free time, but they also need to pay the bills.
>
> Best regards :-)
> Tomek
>
> --
> CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:33:04 -0400
> From: Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net>
> To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <20210320093304.00001e37 at seibercom.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:45:13 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated:
> >Hi Jerry,
> >
> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 13:38 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated:
> >> >Hi,
> >> >
> >> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels at kreme.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> >> >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a
> >> >> > serious
> >> >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller
> >> >> hardware.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a
> >> >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating
> >> >Systems manage to work on the same HW ?
> >>
> >> There are a number of possibilities.
> >>
> >> 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities.
> >>
> >> 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software
> >> and hardware and are smart enough to work around it.
> >>
> >> This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective
> >> controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is
> >> assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the
> >> defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it?
> >>
> >> The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes
> >> this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect.
> >>
> >
> >Hi Jerry,
> >
> >I do understand your frustrations, but if you allow me, it is not a
> >reason to attack the FreeBSD community and it's developers. Let's
> >please focus on facts and possible solutions.
> >
> >As stated in this thread (and another one), did you have time to try
> >any of the proposed tests ?
> >
> >Looking forward to your reply
>
> I CANNOT install it, so I am unsure of how to build a custom kernel.
> Then, assuming I could build a custom kernel, I would not be able to
> use the "freebsd update" utility.  So, to put it in the vernacular,
> "I am fucked if I do, and fucked if I don't". Not a great choice of
> options. I am investigating it though. I got some help from a friend on
> the Microsoft forum who told me he was almost positive I could install
> Windows 10 PRO, then Hyper V and run FreeBSD 12.x or 13.x from there.
> He is polling other users to see if they have had success with the same
> equipment I process. The one very apparent advantage is that I would be
> able to take advantage of Intel's Optane Memory and Storage. As far as
> I can tell, FreeBSD does not support that architecture.
>
> In computing, the robustness principle is a design guideline for software:
>
> Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
> others (often reworded as "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal
> in what you accept"). The principle is also known as Postel's law,
> after Jon Postel, who wrote in an early specification of TCP:
>
> TCP implementations should follow a general principle of robustness: be
> conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.
> In other words, programs that send messages to other machines (or to
> other programs on the same machine) should conform completely to the
> specifications, but programs that receive messages should accept
> non-conformant input as long as the meaning is clear.
>
> Among programmers, to produce compatible functions, the principle is
> also known in the form be contravariant in the input type and covariant
> in the output type.
>
> While this is not a TCP issue directly, the same general principal is
> still relevant.
>
> --
> Jerry
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:49:02 +0000
> From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve at sohara.org>
> To: Tomasz CEDRO <tomek at cedro.info>
> Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List <freebsd-questions at freebsd.org>
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <20210320134902.1d0213791f9c6d90a8f259e8 at sohara.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:20:33 +0100
> Tomasz CEDRO <tomek at cedro.info> wrote:
>
> > Free Softwate is free to use, but is really cost developers life time and
> > all other technical resources and experiences. Just imagine how many
> > problems of this kind developers have everyday. Most of them work for
> free
> > in their free time, but they also need to pay the bills.
>
>         To amplify this it has been three years since anyone other than
> Hans
> Petter Selasky committed to xhci.c, he could probably do with some help
> keeping up with the chaos that is USB hardware.
>
> --
> Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve at sohara.org>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:55:01 +0100
> From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad at thelightbird.com>
> To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID:
>         <CAAQ96DwsjL5ORUhYkb6Q573WtP20EYBpGBGwhjPP_rRhYS_47g at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi Jerry,
>
> I do agree with others not to talk about the same problem on more than one
> thread. This is not helping you or anyone else.
>
> As for your reply, I was not talking about installing FreeBSD directly, I
> was talking about one of the proposed ways to test, by installing FreeBSD
> in a VM to see if you would get the same issues. IIUC, this can help more
> in  understanding and solving the problem.
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 14:33 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:45:13 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated:
> > >Hi Jerry,
> > >
> > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 13:38 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated:
> > >> >Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels at kreme.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> > >> >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a
> > >> >> > serious
> > >> >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller
> > >> >> hardware.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a
> > >> >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating
> > >> >Systems manage to work on the same HW ?
> > >>
> > >> There are a number of possibilities.
> > >>
> > >> 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities.
> > >>
> > >> 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software
> > >> and hardware and are smart enough to work around it.
> > >>
> > >> This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective
> > >> controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is
> > >> assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the
> > >> defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it?
> > >>
> > >> The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes
> > >> this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Hi Jerry,
> > >
> > >I do understand your frustrations, but if you allow me, it is not a
> > >reason to attack the FreeBSD community and it's developers. Let's
> > >please focus on facts and possible solutions.
> > >
> > >As stated in this thread (and another one), did you have time to try
> > >any of the proposed tests ?
> > >
> > >Looking forward to your reply
> >
> > I CANNOT install it, so I am unsure of how to build a custom kernel.
> > Then, assuming I could build a custom kernel, I would not be able to
> > use the "freebsd update" utility.  So, to put it in the vernacular,
> > "I am fucked if I do, and fucked if I don't". Not a great choice of
> > options. I am investigating it though. I got some help from a friend on
> > the Microsoft forum who told me he was almost positive I could install
> > Windows 10 PRO, then Hyper V and run FreeBSD 12.x or 13.x from there.
> > He is polling other users to see if they have had success with the same
> > equipment I process. The one very apparent advantage is that I would be
> > able to take advantage of Intel's Optane Memory and Storage. As far as
> > I can tell, FreeBSD does not support that architecture.
> >
> > In computing, the robustness principle is a design guideline for
> software:
> >
> > Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
> > others (often reworded as "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal
> > in what you accept"). The principle is also known as Postel's law,
> > after Jon Postel, who wrote in an early specification of TCP:
> >
> > TCP implementations should follow a general principle of robustness: be
> > conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.
> > In other words, programs that send messages to other machines (or to
> > other programs on the same machine) should conform completely to the
> > specifications, but programs that receive messages should accept
> > non-conformant input as long as the meaning is clear.
> >
> > Among programmers, to produce compatible functions, the principle is
> > also known in the form be contravariant in the input type and covariant
> > in the output type.
> >
> > While this is not a TCP issue directly, the same general principal is
> > still relevant.
> >
> > --
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:57:40 +0000
> From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve at sohara.org>
> To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <20210320135740.c10f4d671d34ce6590527eb6 at sohara.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:33:04 -0400
> Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
>
> > I CANNOT install it,
>
>         Perhaps I am misunderstanding the situation. AIUI the install
> completes it is just that the default console is spammed by error messages
> so you can't see the login prompt (it is actually possible to log in and
> work under these conditions but it is hideous to do). Fortunately there is
> a better option, there are several active virtual consoles available by
> hitting Alt-F<n> simply switch to one of those, log in and proceed as
> normal.
>
> > so I am unsure of how to build a custom kernel.
> > Then, assuming I could build a custom kernel, I would not be able to
> > use the "freebsd update" utility.
>
>         Of course you can use freebsd-update with a custom kernel, I do it
> all the time. It just adds the extra step of compiling your custom kernel
> before rebooting after the update. My usual sequence for this is:
>
> freebsd-update fetch
> freebsd-update install
> cd /usr/src
> make kernel
> reboot
>
>         NB: make kernel works because I have kernconf set in /etc/make.conf
> to the name of my custom kernel config.
>
> >  So, to put it in the vernacular,
> > "I am fucked if I do, and fucked if I don't".
>
>         Nope, you just have to understand how to get yourself out of the
> hole.
>
> --
> Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve at sohara.org>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:58:51 +0100
> From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad at thelightbird.com>
> To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List <freebsd-questions at freebsd.org>
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID:
>         <CAAQ96Dyruh2PXq-6GJNwD+cvwKNqERn+40KoLxo7gQQn+0eisw@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi Tomasz,
>
> Well said!
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 14:21 Tomasz CEDRO <tomek at cedro.info> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not
> > > install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation
> > > of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the
> > > screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum.
> > >
> > > By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the
> > > use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better.
> > >
> > > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> > > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> > > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> > > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never
> > > were able to get it right.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey Jerry :-)
> >
> > Please just rebuild and install new kernel, at least to see if that fixes
> > your problem :-)
> >
> > This is a standard procedure when you find a problem, it seems
> identified,
> > workaround seems available, a least try if that works for you :-)
> >
> > I also use custom compliled kernel to get my Touchpad working on a
> > non-standard configuration. Until fix is ready and does not break
> > configuration for others I need to work that way because this is a
> problem
> > with _my_setup_. It seems that your problem seems similar.
> >
> > Look on the other hand you are helping others not to have this problem in
> > future.. developers are going through this way everyday and we usually
> have
> > broken or incomplete setup just to help others not to have such problems.
> > With new hardware showing up faster and faster, using their own
> standards,
> > or enforcing linux like solutions thing are and will get even worse. This
> > is not really the issue with FreeBSD, it only gets impacted by this
> > "bleeding edge" approach around :-)
> >
> > Because of drivers I have chosen Linux over FreeBSD around 1999 on my
> first
> > desktop PC. Then when Linux kernel api started changing with every minor
> > release, and when the stable USB stack was created by HPS, I have
> abandoned
> > Linux for good and FreeBSD is my ultimate OS of the choice. I even prefer
> > FreeBSD over OSX/macOS. The problem of quickly changing things and
> breaking
> > compatibility is the Linux by design. You will find many more problems
> like
> > this over there. We are experiencing this kind of issues here because
> world
> > has changed that way unfortunately.
> >
> > I can see three effective solutions here:
> > 1. Use Alt+F2 to switch away from terminal flood and recompile your
> kernel.
> > 2. Maybe XHCI/USB3.0 controller can/could be disabled at runtime in
> > bootloader so it wont be active and the workaround can be ready with no
> > kernel recompile.
> > 3. Provide a hardware and development fee for a person that is willing to
> > fix the problem for you. This will cost time and money but there is a
> > chance that you will get the fix one day just using freebsd-update :-)
> >
> > Free Softwate is free to use, but is really cost developers life time and
> > all other technical resources and experiences. Just imagine how many
> > problems of this kind developers have everyday. Most of them work for
> free
> > in their free time, but they also need to pay the bills.
> >
> > Best regards :-)
> > Tomek
> >
> > --
> > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info
> > _______________________________________________
> > freebsd-questions at freebsd.org mailing list
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
> > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:05:59 -0400
> From: Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman at gmail.com>
> To: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions at freebsd.org>
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID:
>         <CAGBxaXmWqJ4R1WQUdoPViR9tzso=iwwNCQNpveO6kmi2whAV=A at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:20 AM Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:41:31 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated:
> > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 AM Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> > >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> > >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> > >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they
> > >> never were able to get it right.
> > >>
> > >
> > >The bottom line for many people on the list is this must be the tenth
> > >or twentif time you have complained about this same exact bug across
> > >multiple threads and have absolutely refused to lift a finger to fix
> > >it except complain about how bad FreeBSD is compared to Linux.   If
> > >Linux is so much better, STFU and just switch or get off your lazy ass
> > >and actually try to lend a hand.   Either way the reason many people
> > >are being so rude to you is at best you refuse to put in any of the
> > >work required to fix it and at worst you are purposely being a troll
> > >by even making yet another thread/post about the same bug you have
> > >rehashed many many times before on this list so that you have a
> > >whipping boy to show your hatred towards FreeBSD with.
> >
> > Actually, you are the only asshole that seems to have a bug up his ass.
> > Maybe if you took the swastika out of your ass, you wouldn't be such an
> > annoying kibitzer.
> >
>
> You went so far as a few threads ago saying that you *REFUSED* to do any
> testing or helping on this problem because Dell *REFUSED* to give you
> *FREE* hardware to test it on.   That sounds really helpful to me! ... BTW
> I don't know what country you in but in some countries falsely calling
> someone a Nazi is felony.... but calling someone with first name in Hebrew
> a Nazi is way beyond any short of netetiquet I don't even know what to call
> it
>
> --
> Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:15:09 -0500
> From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev at kicp.uchicago.edu>
> To: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad at thelightbird.com>
> Cc: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <AE988246-3097-48C2-B1B7-33A71C64D5F4 at kicp.uchicago.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> > On Mar 20, 2021, at 7:01 AM, Mohammad Noureldin <
> mohammad at thelightbird.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am new to this mailing list, using FreeBSD/*BSD on and off. Joined the
> > mailing list because I have a couple of project ideas that I want to
> build
> > on top of *BSD.
> >
> > Though I am new, and maybe relative to many others here I am a newbie,
> > allow me to comment on all the aspects addressed (so far) in this email
> > thread:
> >
> > - "It is easy to build a new (custom) kernel", "Unix is made by technical
> > people for technical people", etc:
> >
> > Though historically it is true that Unix like systems are made by
> technical
> > people for technical people, it doesn't mean that it has to stay like
> this.
> > IMHO, such motto causes a great piece of Engineering like *BSD to loose
> > ground for other Unix like systems, namely Linux and all it's Distros.
> Not
> > that I am a Linux hatter, I have respect to both.
> >
> > Related to that, I don't believe that it is a good message to FreeBSD
> > users, that if you don't know how to build a new kernel, then there is no
> > place for you here. IMHO, this really hurts the image of the community of
> > FreeBSD specially in the eyes of new commers. Notice these email messages
> > are archived.
>
> That was said by only one - very loud - member of FreeBSD community,
> people here are much milder and way more polite. And I for one do not share
> the view that FreeBSD in particular and open source systems in general are
> only for people with [some] technical knowledge.
>
> 1. Installation of FreeBSD is quite streamlined (and same are Debian,
> Ubuntu?)
>
> 2. Interaction with machine is same nice as closed source systems' once
> you have Xwindow installed (here FreeBSD may need a bit effort compared to
> Linuxes I mentioned)
>
> 3. Compiling kernel. In general this suggest that I repeat here what I
> tell my users who never used Linux or UNIX: how many commands do you need
> to know to start using shell? 4 - 5, I?ll show you them in a minute. Then
> you just start, ? and this is really true. Compiling kernel is just another
> 3-4 commands. It is simple, no need to hold people from doing it
>
> > - About the problem reported:
> >
> > Thanks for all who went through the long list of comments on that PR and
> > explained in brief that it is a USB controller/HW problem.
> >
> > In that respect, I do agree with Jerry and others wondering how other
> OS(s)
> > can manage running on the same HW (in case that has been proven) ? I
> > believe it worths looking at that. I would have volunteered to dig deeper
> > into that, but I know I don't have the required experience (unless
> someone
> > is willing to mentor me ? :) )
>
> No comment on this specific troublesome hardware. Linux in my observation
> has many ?workarounds? to deal with misbehaving hardware. FreeBSD may be
> acting ?cleaner? here, hence stays more stringent system, but experts may
> correct me. I still remember one chipset which is NOT worth effort writing
> driver for: BCM 43xx Broadcom WiFi. That is 32 bit chip, sitting on 64 bit
> bus, no need to add more detail after that.
>
> > And responding to that:"OK, just shut up and go install another OS", is
> not
> > a community building attitude at all.
>
> I agree, saying that is not polite. Better just ignore the OP. Which I
> observe many experts did, though several tried to help. Way back before
> first asking for help on one of technical lists I read list etiquette
> carefully, and there are several things to keep in mind, the OP didn?t show
> some of them (not all definitely). Just some of what I remember:
>
> Before asking for help, try do resolve issue yourself within your ability
>
> Describe what you tried and give all details; this simultaneously will
> show that you did put effort on your side, then you will less likely to be
> ignored
>
> Disrespect to others is likely to make you ignored
>
> Read carefully suggestions and try to follow them. Report what worked and
> what didn?t. You at least have to respect time and effort of experts trying
> to help you.
>
> --
> I stop here just by saying, please, everybody, do not take this as an
> attempt of ?mentoring?, but someone may find truth in the above; I for one
> did.
>
>
> I have just one comment on the hardware choice: this one is one of Dell
> ?consumer grade? products, which is not intended to last, I wouldn?t choose
> it myself. They look cheaper upfront, but they end up more expensive in a
> log run. Dell OptiPlex (not much more expensive) would have been my choice
> of the same class of hardware.
>
> Be it me, I would go with one or both of solutions already suggested in
> the thread:
>
> 1. Disable in BIOS on board USB and add USB card if necessary
>
> 2. Recompile kernel with switched off USB-3. The first for me would be
> preferable, just to not keep recompiling kernel once kernel security
> patches are released (but that is me, lazy person)
>
>
> Good luck, Jerry, in resolving your technical issue.
>
> Valeri
>
> > And for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a second that Jerry is
> > lazy or not skilled enough, helping him and fixing the problem or clearly
> > explaining a solution without bashing him, is not just for Jerry, it is
> for
> > the whole community, for the current and new members who will be
> interested
> > to join in the future.
> >
> > Jerry, I am curious, did you have time to try one the suggestions,
> > specially running FreeBSD on a VM to see if it still suffers from the
> same
> > problem ?
> >
> > You all have a great day/evening
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:30:00 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated:
> >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf at riseup.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> >>>>> Void uses a runit init system with no systemd
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For
> >>>> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux
> >>>> without systemd is a bottomless pit.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
> >>>>> Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you
> >>>>> should not be using any Unix variant
> >>>>
> >>>> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the
> >>>> kernel might be less effort, than migrating to another operating
> >>>> system. If you would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get
> >>>> used to systemd. Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you
> >>>> chose a Linux distro that doesn't use systemd, you likely will
> >>>> experience all kinds of trouble, if you want to customize your
> >>>> install.
> >>>
> >>> I used that tone because it really is simple and if you can't/won't
> >>> recompile the kernel before throwing the baby out despite with the bath
> >>> water then you really don't have the skills/desire needed to use Unix
> >>> effectively...  Just to show how trivial it really is
> >>>
> >>> 1. Edit /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/GENERIC (or i386 instead of amd64 if
> >>> your still using it) to comment out the xhci line (line 327 in
> >>> 12.2-RELASE-pl3) to remove USB 3.0 support
> >>> 2. cd /usr/src
> >>> 3. make kernel
> >>> 4. etcupdate
> >>> 5. reboot
> >>>
> >>> Done.... how hard is that?
> >>
> >> I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not
> >> install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation
> >> of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the
> >> screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum.
> >>
> >> By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the
> >> use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better.
> >>
> >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never
> >> were able to get it right.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > freebsd-questions at freebsd.org mailing list
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-
> unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:35:34 -0500
> From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev at kicp.uchicago.edu>
> To: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad at thelightbird.com>
> Cc: FreeBSD <freebsd-questions at freebsd.org>
> Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <98F5179B-981F-46F3-8F6C-2695EE23C5E8 at kicp.uchicago.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> > On Mar 20, 2021, at 6:30 AM, Mohammad Noureldin <
> mohammad at thelightbird.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels at kreme.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> >>> To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a serious
> >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller hardware.
> >>
> >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a flaw in
> >> the controller. It is providing an invalid ID.
> >>
> >
> > If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating Systems
> > manage to work on the same HW ?
> >
>
> Linux may have ?workaround? that. But that is Linux: it is really full of
> hacks and workarounds, good clean system better does not go that way. I?m
> glad FreeBSD doesn?t (hopefully). Don?t be a hostage of bad hardware
> manufacturers.
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> Valeri
>
> >
> >> --
> >> "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
> >> "Are you pondering cheesesticks?"
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> freebsd-questions at freebsd.org mailing list
> >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
> >> freebsd-questions-unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > freebsd-questions at freebsd.org mailing list
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-
> unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:32:20 -0500
> From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev at kicp.uchicago.edu>
> To: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" <office at klepp.biz>
> Cc: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD
> Message-ID: <617090F5-5664-44E2-AA96-218A486A3C69 at kicp.uchicago.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> > On Mar 19, 2021, at 3:42 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp <office at klepp.biz>
> wrote:
> >
> > Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Mar 21:32:14 +0100
> > Ralf Mardorf scripsit:
> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> >>> Void uses a runit init system with no systemd
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For
> >> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux without
> >> systemd is a bottomless pit.
> >
> > Oh, you can use Devuan - wich works perfect. But I'd reverse the
> argument: It's not a good good idea, to run Linux with systemd. Basicly
> systemd is the argument to move away from Linux.
> >
>
> Indeed. Once [systemd related] code was aded to kernel, it was it. Kernel
> is polluted, and cleaning that away from kernel only adds extra bugs and
> problems. Even maintaining the branch of kernel stemming from pre-systemd
> is not as good as were it no systemd in the world at all.
>
> But that is just extra argument to move away from Linux (at least systems
> that can be moved away).
>
> Valeri
>
> > Nik
> >
> >>
> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
> >>> Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you
> >>> should not be using any Unix variant
> >>
> >> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the kernel
> >> might be less effort, than migrating to another operating system. If you
> >> would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get used to systemd.
> >> Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you chose a Linux distro
> >> that doesn't use systemd, you likely will experience all kinds of
> >> trouble, if you want to customize your install.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Ralf
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> freebsd-questions at freebsd.org mailing list
> >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-
> unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
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