OS to replace FreeBSD

Sat Mar 20 17:38:10 UTC 2021

Hi Valeri,

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 3:15 PM Valeri Galtsev <galtsev at kicp.uchicago.edu>
wrote:

>
>
> > On Mar 20, 2021, at 7:01 AM, Mohammad Noureldin <
> mohammad at thelightbird.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am new to this mailing list, using FreeBSD/*BSD on and off. Joined the
> > mailing list because I have a couple of project ideas that I want to
> build
> > on top of *BSD.
> >
> > Though I am new, and maybe relative to many others here I am a newbie,
> > allow me to comment on all the aspects addressed (so far) in this email
> > thread:
> >
> > - "It is easy to build a new (custom) kernel", "Unix is made by technical
> > people for technical people", etc:
> >
> > Though historically it is true that Unix like systems are made by
> technical
> > people for technical people, it doesn't mean that it has to stay like
> this.
> > IMHO, such motto causes a great piece of Engineering like *BSD to loose
> > ground for other Unix like systems, namely Linux and all it's Distros.
> Not
> > that I am a Linux hatter, I have respect to both.
> >
> > Related to that, I don't believe that it is a good message to FreeBSD
> > users, that if you don't know how to build a new kernel, then there is no
> > place for you here. IMHO, this really hurts the image of the community of
> > FreeBSD specially in the eyes of new commers. Notice these email messages
> > are archived.
>
> That was said by only one - very loud - member of FreeBSD community,
> people here are much milder and way more polite. And I for one do not share
> the view that FreeBSD in particular and open source systems in general are
> only for people with [some] technical knowledge.
>

That was exactly my point :) . One reason to share my opinions, though I am
new here, is that I have 100% trust in the openness, inclusiveness and
friendliness of the FreeBSD community. But some conversations may be read
in the wrong way in readers didn't read the details of the discussion.

>
> 1. Installation of FreeBSD is quite streamlined (and same are Debian,
> Ubuntu…)
>
> 2. Interaction with machine is same nice as closed source systems' once
> you have Xwindow installed (here FreeBSD may need a bit effort compared to
> Linuxes I mentioned)
>
> 3. Compiling kernel. In general this suggest that I repeat here what I
> tell my users who never used Linux or UNIX: how many commands do you need
> to know to start using shell? 4 - 5, I’ll show you them in a minute. Then
> you just start, … and this is really true. Compiling kernel is just another
> 3-4 commands. It is simple, no need to hold people from doing it
>
> > - About the problem reported:
> >
> > Thanks for all who went through the long list of comments on that PR and
> > explained in brief that it is a USB controller/HW problem.
> >
> > In that respect, I do agree with Jerry and others wondering how other
> OS(s)
> > can manage running on the same HW (in case that has been proven) ? I
> > believe it worths looking at that. I would have volunteered to dig deeper
> > into that, but I know I don't have the required experience (unless
> someone
> > is willing to mentor me ? :) )
>
> No comment on this specific troublesome hardware. Linux in my observation
> has many “workarounds” to deal with misbehaving hardware. FreeBSD may be
> acting “cleaner” here, hence stays more stringent system, but experts may
> correct me. I still remember one chipset which is NOT worth effort writing
> driver for: BCM 43xx Broadcom WiFi. That is 32 bit chip, sitting on 64 bit
> bus, no need to add more detail after that.
>
> > And responding to that:"OK, just shut up and go install another OS", is
> not
> > a community building attitude at all.
>
> I agree, saying that is not polite. Better just ignore the OP. Which I
> observe many experts did, though several tried to help. Way back before
> first asking for help on one of technical lists I read list etiquette
> carefully, and there are several things to keep in mind, the OP didn’t show
> some of them (not all definitely). Just some of what I remember:
>
> Before asking for help, try do resolve issue yourself within your ability
>
> Describe what you tried and give all details; this simultaneously will
> show that you did put effort on your side, then you will less likely to be
> ignored
>
> Disrespect to others is likely to make you ignored
>
> Read carefully suggestions and try to follow them. Report what worked and
> what didn’t. You at least have to respect time and effort of experts trying
> to help you.
>
> --
> I stop here just by saying, please, everybody, do not take this as an
> attempt of “mentoring”, but someone may find truth in the above; I for one
> did.
>
>
> I have just one comment on the hardware choice: this one is one of Dell
> “consumer grade” products, which is not intended to last, I wouldn’t choose
> it myself. They look cheaper upfront, but they end up more expensive in a
> log run. Dell OptiPlex (not much more expensive) would have been my choice
> of the same class of hardware.
>
> Be it me, I would go with one or both of solutions already suggested in
> the thread:
>
> 1. Disable in BIOS on board USB and add USB card if necessary
>
> 2. Recompile kernel with switched off USB-3. The first for me would be
> preferable, just to not keep recompiling kernel once kernel security
> patches are released (but that is me, lazy person)
>
>
> Good luck, Jerry, in resolving your technical issue.
>
> Valeri
>
> > And for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a second that Jerry is
> > lazy or not skilled enough, helping him and fixing the problem or clearly
> > explaining a solution without bashing him, is not just for Jerry, it is
> for
> > the whole community, for the current and new members who will be
> interested
> > to join in the future.
> >
> > Jerry, I am curious, did you have time to try one the suggestions,
> > specially running FreeBSD on a VM to see if it still suffers from the
> same
> > problem ?
> >
> > You all have a great day/evening
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry at seibercom.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:30:00 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated:
> >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf at riseup.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd at johnea.net wrote:
> >>>>> Void uses a runit init system with no systemd
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For
> >>>> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux
> >>>> without systemd is a bottomless pit.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
> >>>>> Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you
> >>>>> should not be using any Unix variant
> >>>>
> >>>> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the
> >>>> kernel might be less effort, than migrating to another operating
> >>>> system. If you would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get
> >>>> used to systemd. Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you
> >>>> chose a Linux distro that doesn't use systemd, you likely will
> >>>> experience all kinds of trouble, if you want to customize your
> >>>> install.
> >>>
> >>> I used that tone because it really is simple and if you can't/won't
> >>> recompile the kernel before throwing the baby out despite with the bath
> >>> water then you really don't have the skills/desire needed to use Unix
> >>> effectively...  Just to show how trivial it really is
> >>>
> >>> 1. Edit /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/GENERIC (or i386 instead of amd64 if
> >>> your still using it) to comment out the xhci line (line 327 in
> >>> 12.2-RELASE-pl3) to remove USB 3.0 support
> >>> 2. cd /usr/src
> >>> 3. make kernel
> >>> 4. etcupdate
> >>> 5. reboot
> >>>
> >>> Done.... how hard is that?
> >>
> >> I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not
> >> install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation
> >> of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the
> >> screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum.
> >>
> >> By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the
> >> use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better.
> >>
> >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one
> >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain,
> >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The
> >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never
> >> were able to get it right.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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>
>

-- 
Mohammad Noureldin
Founder/Owner The Lightbird