Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors

prad prad at towardsfreedom.com
Thu Dec 11 19:04:20 PST 2008

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:46:54 -0700
Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:

> My point exactly -- you rush to his defense, making statements that
> seem intended to skewer me for things he has done.  I don't consider
> that the epitome of fairness.
i'm not trying to skewer you. i only stated that i didn't think it was
fair to call him a troll and stated my reasons as to why.

> Each time, I have very
> clearly stated my disagreement with his estimation of FreeBSD as
> being thoroughly beaten by MS Windows in that area, with that URL
> provided as evidence to back my claim.
the problem is that is your own posting
(http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=335), not that it should automatically be
disqualified for that reason. also, the focus seems to specifically on
"open source systems are currently better at glitz and glamour than
Microsoft and Apple systems".

i don't disagree with you that opensource stuff is much better even if
they don't have certain things. however, is this really a freebsd issue
or a particular version of a desktop that is offered by a unix system.
freebsd doesn't offer the most recent versions (and that's not
necessarily a bad thing).

> Each time, he has completely ignored what I said and the URL I
> provided. He keeps coming back to make exactly the same sort of
> claims he has before, utterly failing to addresses arguments against
> his hand-waving statements without any logical or evidenciary
> support.  Nobody else has bothered to dispute what I've said, either.
while i would not use xp, somethings do work with less effort there
than say ubuntu. there are certain programs like voice recognition that
there isn't an equivalent for with opensource, yet.

despite this, i certainly try to demonstrate to people why they should
use opensource rather than windoze.

> In absence of, at *minimum*, some half-assed attempt to make a case
> against what I've provided, I will continue to regard his repetition
> of disputed, unsupported statements to be dishonest or at least wildly
> inaccurate.
i think his arguments go beyond the eye candy realm. he is not alone,
you know. i recall reading a few years ago, the creator of the
enlightenment wm saying that the desktop war was long lost to windoze.
i don't know if that is correct these days, but it certainly seemed so

> Would you prefer I just accept his statements, which fly in the face
> of my own experience, even after he fails to answer supported
> disputations of their content, just because it's him and you say he
> has to be right about everything?
chad, you are fantasizing now. i never said he has to be right about
everything. in fact, i know for certain that he is wrong whenever he
disagrees with me. :D

i don't think you need to accept his statements. i do think it would be
better if we could drop the name calling and the anger, displayed in
the earlier posts. if he fails "to answer supported disputations of
their content", you can certainly ask him to deal with the matter at

> Even if his statement itself isn't dishonest, his unwillingness to
> either back away from it or offer a counterargument when it is
> effectively disputed is dishonest.  He pretends there is no other
> side to the matter, no other valid opinion, yet resolutely refuses to
> acknowledge such "other side" arguments when they arise.
i find he does answer quite prolifically, but perhaps he may not have
addressed your particular issues.

> > and as far as 'sticking to the rules', he hasn't abused anyone from
> > any of the posts i recall reading, so within the terms of conduct of
> > an email list, i don't find your picturesque expression 'crush
> > others beneath his heel' legitimate.  
> I guess you haven't been reading very closely.
well there are other things to do in life, you know.
but i did notice that you called him a troll and possibly a few other
things, which i don't think is appropriate for this list which is the
freebsd-questions list and not the freebsd-namecalling list.

> Oh, poppycock.  Go back and read the very post to which I responded
> when I called him a troll.  Notice how he says things that seem
> carefully calculated to make people think "Oh, this FreeBSD thing
> obviously sucks as a desktop OS."  
i really didn't get that feeling. i think it was more that he doesn't
feel desktop paraphernalia is a high priority.

> If you want me to speculate, the best I can offer ... [snip]
well you may be right, but i think for now it should simply rest as
speculation only.

> Nice -- I make a single comment directed at him about his trolling
> behavior, and you drag that out into this lengthy back-and-forth --
> and somehow this means I have a vendetta.
well words like "cruel", "sadistic" and "bastard" really compliment the
ambiance that the initial "troll" conjured up. i think you may have
said things more 'forcefully' than intended, which is why i thought it
was sounding rather like a vendetta.

> I guess, when you want to
> argue against someone, it helps if you can manufacture greater
> malevolence on their part than actually exists, if you want to "win"
> a debate through argumentum ad hominem attacks.
i'm not interested in winning this discussion, chad. i do think there
are more appropriate ways to behave on an elist that require we don't
get into name calling and engaging in the very ad hominem attacks that
you so rightly object to. 

> In answer to your question, RTFML (i.e., Read The Fucking Mailing
> List).
nor is there really any need for what is commonly accepted as
profanity by a significant number of the population. i don't really
think you expect me to go through the mailing list to find instances of
what you consider the "half a dozen times in the last year ... he has
done his level best to dissuade people ...". on the other hand, if you
are able to find these 6 references for me since you are sure they
exist, i promise you that i will read them.

> http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html
>   To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable
> responses or flames; or, the post itself.
> I think that better fits his consistent statements to the effect that
> FreeBSD is inferior to MS Windows as a general desktop OS on the
> FreeBSD mailing list than it does my statement that trying to drive
> people away from FreeBSD when it might be the best option for them is
> cruel and sadistic.  I used hyperbole; he said things that seem
> calculated to draw flames.
on the other hand, some of the words you have used (hyperbole
notwithstanding), do ignite the fire - it is likely we wouldn't be
engaged in this discussion if more appropriate words were used.

> I'm done trying.  I guess, when someone offers a supported argument,
> he simply ignores it -- and therefore doesn't have to admit to having
> been effectively disputed.
chad, i think it's great that you are such an opensource advocate. i
think there is little doubt wojecieh is too. i happen to agree with him
on this freebsd matter though and i haven't found your arguments
convince me otherwise. nor have i found some of your comments about him
either accurate or appropriate. perhaps, some others feel the other
way around because of your posts.

i think you and i have exchanged enough information on this topic, so
if you are done trying, i won't continue this beyond this post since i
think we are both possibly polluting the list at this stage. (if you do
wish to continue discussing, you are welcome to email me privately.)

In friendship,

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
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