Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
perrin at apotheon.com
Thu Dec 11 17:47:15 PST 2008
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 04:47:23PM -0800, prad wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:11:25 -0700
> Chad Perrin <perrin at apotheon.com> wrote:
> > His manner of expressing his feelings seems to be to try to crush
> > others' beneath his heel. Try examining the definition of the word
> > "fair" before you use it in the future.
> ok, chad, here's what you find on dictionary.com that are relevant:
> 1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair
> 2. legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper
> under the rules: a fair fight.
My point exactly -- you rush to his defense, making statements that seem
intended to skewer me for things he has done. I don't consider that the
epitome of fairness.
> ok no one is really free from bias when it comes to these things. as
> shaw (i think) once wrote "an unbiased opinion isn't worth a damn".
> i do not think you have provided specific evidence that he has been
> dishonesty or unjust ... much less so that he has even been incorrect.
Let's take, as an example, the link I provided in response to a comment
of his that prompted a couple people to defend him. I've given him that
URL three or four times in the last year, in direct response to some
statement he has made suggesting that FreeBSD desktops simply cannot
compare with MS Windows desktops in terms of flashiness, bells and
whistles, et cetera. Each time, I have very clearly stated my
disagreement with his estimation of FreeBSD as being thoroughly beaten by
MS Windows in that area, with that URL provided as evidence to back my
Each time, he has completely ignored what I said and the URL I provided.
He keeps coming back to make exactly the same sort of claims he has
before, utterly failing to addresses arguments against his hand-waving
statements without any logical or evidenciary support. Nobody else has
bothered to dispute what I've said, either.
In absence of, at *minimum*, some half-assed attempt to make a case
against what I've provided, I will continue to regard his repetition of
disputed, unsupported statements to be dishonest or at least wildly
inaccurate. That's generally how *reasonable* people treat hand-waving
arguments like his, with no logical or evidenciary support -- nor even
personal, anecdotal support -- when they are disputed by a
counterargument *with support*.
Would you prefer I just accept his statements, which fly in the face of
my own experience, even after he fails to answer supported disputations
of their content, just because it's him and you say he has to be right
Even if his statement itself isn't dishonest, his unwillingness to either
back away from it or offer a counterargument when it is effectively
disputed is dishonest. He pretends there is no other side to the matter,
no other valid opinion, yet resolutely refuses to acknowledge such "other
side" arguments when they arise.
I use an example of my own statements only because I'm most familiar with
my own statements -- not because others do not exist.
> and as far as 'sticking to the rules', he hasn't abused anyone from
> any of the posts i recall reading, so within the terms of conduct of
> an email list, i don't find your picturesque expression 'crush others
> beneath his heel' legitimate.
I guess you haven't been reading very closely.
> > If he just said "If this doesn't suit your needs, try something
> > else," I wouldn't have a problem. Telling people patent falsehoods
> > about how FreeBSD simply can't do what other OSes can, even in cases
> > where FreeBSD can do them *better* than those other OSes, in an
> > attempt to drive away anyone that might be looking at FreeBSD as a
> > possible migration path, is rather suboptimal in my opinion, however.
> it would be suboptimal, if it were true. however, i really can't recall
> anything of the sort, chad - ever. and certainly not in this thread. i
> also don't understand why you think he'd be even motivated to do this.
> of what possible interest could it be for him to drive others away from
Oh, poppycock. Go back and read the very post to which I responded when
I called him a troll. Notice how he says things that seem carefully
calculated to make people think "Oh, this FreeBSD thing obviously sucks
as a desktop OS." Take off the blinders.
I have no idea why he'd be motivated to do that. I'm not him. All I
know is what I've seen him do increasingly often over the last year. If
you want me to speculate, the best I can offer is that maybe he thinks
keeping the community from growing too much will help keep his advice
more exceptional within a smaller niche, or perhaps he really does think
that good desktop functionality and good server functionality cannot
coexist (as he certainly seems to think) -- so driving away anyone that
wants to make the move to FreeBSD as a desktop OS might be a good way to
keep it improving as a server OS in his mind. In fact, he has as much as
said so in the past, though not in so many words.
> > You talk about how many people have gone where they can get what they
> > want by migrating to FreeBSD, completely ignoring the fact that about
> > half a dozen times in the last year (wild guess on frequency) he has
> > done his level best to dissuade people from even finding out whether
> > FreeBSD is where they can get what they want.
> perhaps i haven't read those specific posts. if they really do exist
> and are legitimate beyond your own personal vendetta (which it is
> seeming to have become for some reason now), could you point me there?
Nice -- I make a single comment directed at him about his trolling
behavior, and you drag that out into this lengthy back-and-forth -- and
somehow this means I have a vendetta. I guess, when you want to argue
against someone, it helps if you can manufacture greater malevolence on
their part than actually exists, if you want to "win" a debate through
argumentum ad hominem attacks.
In answer to your question, RTFML (i.e., Read The Fucking Mailing List).
> > What kind of cruel,
> > sadistic bastard tries so hard to prevent people from bettering their
> > circumstances like that?
> chad, have you recently tried examining the definition of the word
> "troll" as it pertains to usage on an elist?
To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses
or flames; or, the post itself.
I think that better fits his consistent statements to the effect that
FreeBSD is inferior to MS Windows as a general desktop OS on the FreeBSD
mailing list than it does my statement that trying to drive people away
from FreeBSD when it might be the best option for them is cruel and
sadistic. I used hyperbole; he said things that seem calculated to draw
> if you don't agree with what he says, then just post your disagreement
> with backup. he can do the same. may be you'll convince each other -
> may be you won't.
I've done so -- and he has ignored it.
I'm done trying. I guess, when someone offers a supported argument, he
simply ignores it -- and therefore doesn't have to admit to having been
Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
Quoth C. Hoare: "Two ways of constructing software: (1) make it so
simple that there are obviously no bugs, (2) make it so complicated that
there are no obvious bugs. Making it simple is far more difficult."
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