Leaving the group

Allen all at biosys.net
Sat Jun 12 08:12:08 GMT 2004

Still CCing you because you said you were leaving the list.. I don't know 
if you did or not.

Pardon the chopping, between both messages this is too long, imho, to quote 
in its entirety.  I'll just touch on some points.

At 03:11 6/12/2004, Andy Sporner wrote:

>    1.  Definately not Microsoftish!  I am not that strapped for cash
>        to privatize for this reason.  It is simply a matter of motivation.
>        Until recently when I realized how many people are using this
>        I thought to myself, "What am I doing this for!???"  No insult
>        taken by the way--just a point of clarification.

I didn't intend the 'microsoftish' comment as meaning you were chasing 
after money, but to bring the spirit of competition into light.

>    2.  Check out the NetBSD project server,  I have still a low two

I don't know what you mean by the "netbsd project server."

For point 3, I totally understand.  We all have time constraints.

> > world."  You apparently feel slighted that a website/project other than
> > yours was mentioned, or even exists.
>        I Flew off the handle because this is not the first time, but
>        about the 4th or 5th time.

Honestly I still don't see that as a good reason.  It is, honestly, up to 
you to promote your project.  That means it's up to you to reply to 
questions like the one asked, even if just to say "check this one out also."

There was no call for any kind of anger or indignity.

>        If it's all about survival of the fittest--I will take a pass.

The link you provided to the "not religious community" didn't work, so I 
can't pass judgement. ;)

In my opinion, it is about a sort of darwinism, to be honest.

Problems crop up, different solutions emerge, and then those solutions 
either evolve or die.  Sometimes the class of solutions are all close to 
equal, functionally, but solve things in a different way, or have different 
core goals.

This is true of net/open/free flavors of BSD, as well as smaller projects 
such as postgres/sendmail/qmail.

The goal of open software is constant evolution towards some ideal, 
different project leaders have different ideas about what the ideal is, so 
multiple projects that are the same on the surface go forward simultaneously.

However, less strong projects will not survive just because a lot of effort 
was put into them -- they have to actually provide some kind of 
value.  Again, I don't know exactly what your HA patches do, nor what how 
the competition works, so don't think I'm making a statement here about 
your project -- just a general observation.

>        So far the people who are using the software have had no problems
>        (evidently) with it and so the documentation was enough.  I admit
>        it lacks what it should have but it's all about time and volunteers.
>        I agree documentation is sorely lacking, but I can't do both.
>        I never said this was a closed project...

No, but it's still "your" project.  You have to pick up the slack where it 
happens, but more importantly, you have to generate interest -- not just in 
using it, but in working on it.

Plenty of people on the mailing lists are, like me, more sysadmins than 
coders.  Just because people see your project on this list, or even if 
they're using it, doesn't mean they have the time or skill to help with 
developing it.

Something like -hackers would be a better place to start soliciting for 
volunteers to help you with your project if you don't have the 
time.  That's where the coders hang out.

>       Until now I have never heard from you.  If you waited so long,
>       than why didn't you say something???  How much could a paragraph
>       worth of email could have cost--considering how much time I have
>       so far wrapped up in this project???

I don't understand your questions.

I meant that I was going to write "before this" meaning, I was going to 
respond to you on the list right after I saw your first post regarding this 
thread, the one where you said :

>I think at this point I will just remove my software
>from general distribution if this is going to be the
>way that support is going to be given...

Before that post, I'd never heard of your project, or at the very least I 
don't remember seeing anything about it, and I've been using FreeBSD since 

>       I am not moved by money here--but a little satisfaction or
>       constructive criticism when it would have been helpful would have
>       been nice.

Well now you have some of the latter at least. ;)

Expand the website a bit.  Add at the very least a description of just what 
your project is *for*, how it works in a general sense, system 
requirements, etc.

Also change the links so that the whole word is in the anchor tag, not just 
the "+" symbol.  It took me a good 45 seconds just staring at the page 
wondering if there was anything to click on because the "+" symbols are 
very small, and almost the same color as the background they're on.

>        Certainly not, I was simply angry because after all the work I
>        did and all the times in THIS GROUP I have made mention of it
>        that at least it was not in the list of things to try--I was
>        very dissappointed

There was no list, just one post, one suggestion from someone.

I will never understand your anger about this, and it's simply not possible 
for you to justify it to me.  You should've just spoken up and said "you 
can try this as well" the same as the first person responding did.

If you had been the first person to respond to the question, would you have 
mentioned the other project, or only your own?  Would the other project 
members have a right to get angry at you for not mentioning *their* project?

Look at it from all sides and you'll see your anger is completely 
unjustified on many levels.

>       I also lost sight of where "people helping people" have gone to as
>       well.  Not just b-tching when something doesn't fit their fancy or
>       nobody ever bothers to ask questions before making a decision.  This
>       all smacks of what is wrong with the world today.  It's all about
>       fast food, instant gratification and more more more--without the
>       social expenses.  Community??? Really....

Honestly, this little paragraph is almost enough to make *me* angry.

First, someone had a question, and the first person do respond *did* 
help.  It was people helping people.

Second, when that post didn't fit *your* fancy, *you* started bitching.

Third, someone did ask a question before making a decision : that is 
exactly what started this entire thread, someone asking a question.

Seriously.  Take a long hard look at the thread, start to finish, and 
rethink this entire paragraph.

>I really laugh sometimes.  People have borrowed the word "Community"
>from the Linux folks, but people here (not necessarily in this group)
>complain about linux.  I know I have at times and I still think for
>good reason.  But they have one thing right.  THey have, "The Linux
>Router Project", or "The linux hi-availability project"  ad nasuem...
>I thought since I was so far the first to step up to this that this
>was the "FreeBSD HA project" but I was sorely mistaken evidently.

I'll agree with you here.  FreeBSD has no such heirarchy unless it's within 
"the project."  When something is good, mature, and getting a lot of 
positive feedback, there is a chance it will be rolled into the official 
sources and become part of the system.  That is how the project and the 
community works.

They're just as overworked as you are, they don't have the time or people 
to spend starting an entirely new project to provide HA (or even just 
simpler forms) clustering.

So, someone starts a project.  Several people start several 
projects.  Eventually one, or maybe even both, will possibly be rolled into 
the base system.  If not, you can always make it available as a port in the 

Personally, I very much like it this way in comparison to "the linux way."

I *like* the idea that there is *no* project called, officially, "the 
freebsd xyz project" because that implies endorsement and support of the 
core team.  Linux *has* no "core team" and thus no such problem.  50 
projects could call themselves "the linux clustering project" if they 
wanted and nobody could say anything about it, and indeed, it would be 
survival of the fittest.

Though, in fact, it would probably follow the linux development and 
adoption phase, which is not at all survival of the fittest, but instead, 
survival of the most popular.

>Stay tuned...

I intend to, it's why I'm on the list.  Mostly lurking and watching for HA 
clustering efforts to evaluate.  It's one area where windows (and other 
commercial projects) have a large advantage, even if as is the case in 
windows, it only works with a maximum of two machines per cluster.

I for one would love a true HA clustering solution for FreeBSD, with a 
shared SCSI bus, etc, so I could build five little machines to use as the 
db server for $1000 each instead of one big machine costing over $5,000.

A lowly *nix sysadmin and windows coding guru with a mere 9 years 
professional experience. 

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