Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support

Sun Dec 3 20:05:44 UTC 2017

In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023 at pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W. 
Gri
mes" writes:
> > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote:
> > > In message <CANCZdfrYdQTtjZJ_+jSVr25wjAZXd-+4atSaeT5ahfprbtXHWw at mail.gmai
> l.c
> > > om>
> > > , Warner Losh writes:
> > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert at komquats.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge
> > >>>
> > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very differe
> nt
> > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat
> > >>> instead.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need t
> o
> > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the co
> de.
> > >> Is ufd working for you?
> > > 
> > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said
> > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them.
> > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it
> 's
> > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have t
> he
> > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be
> > > much less messy. I'm open to either option.
> > > 
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's
> > >>> deprecated,
> > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has bee
> n a
> > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that.
> > >>>
> > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for t
> he
> > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with
> > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD driv
> es.
> > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the abil
> ity
> > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some for
> m of
> > >>> support fd or ufd.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here...
> > > 
> > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether it b
> e
> > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for subsequent
> > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought to my
> > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old flop
> py
> > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing machi
> ne
> > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows.
> > > 
> > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD drives
> > > not too many years from now...
> > > 
> > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself
> > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can
> > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and
> > > remove in 13?
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under 
> > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are 
> > still important:
> > 
> > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-fl
> oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations
> > 
> > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy people 
> > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support 
> > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows 
> > installation to read such disks.
> > 
> > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. 
> > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source code.
> > 
> > --HPS
>
> I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now.  If you remove
> the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they
> well just compile a customer kernel and do there work.  So using this as
> a "is anyone using it" is a straw man.
>
> That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal
> with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD
> deal with it using my prefered OS.
>
> Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find
> a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal
> with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system
> as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD
> in the name of some progress.
>
> **RANT ON**
>
> Data point:  OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so
> my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running,
> it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers
> can not manage the same.  As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000
> lines so of code.   Really now, we can manage to keep the mass
> of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c
> running?
>
> I further know of someone who just told me they completed
> a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB
> zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person
> is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done
> with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form
> of support.   It is possible that person netbooted an
> older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types
> of abilities.
>
> **DOUBLE RANT**
>
> Having been gone from the project for a long time and
> looking at it from the outside my observation is that
> FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and
> a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few
> years.
>
> Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection
> of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that 
> has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken
> cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it
> to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken.
>
> If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise
> you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle
> comparied to the ocean we shall create.
>
> Rather than spend time running around the tree finding
> rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious
> effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has
> rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it.
>
> ** END RANTS**

I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old 
leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) 
controllers and take a poke at it.

USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet 
committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked 
USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into 
the existing fdformat.

-- 
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert at cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX:  <cy at FreeBSD.org>   Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org

	The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.