well, try here first...

[Polytropon]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:20:51 -0700, Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC wrote:
> 
> On Nov 13, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Polytropon wrote:
> > 
> > Ouch.
> > 
> > Unlike in English, the comma in German is an important symbol
> > in grammar. It brings structure to sentences. In English, there
> > is the "word order" that achieves this goal, and a comma is
> > mostly optional or "left to preferences". In German, there are
> > rules where to place a comma, and where not to. Those rules
> > are relatively easy to understand, and luckily they do not
> > leave much space for individual preferences. :-)
> > 
> > In the above example,
> > 
> > 	Playboy, alles was Maennern Spass macht
> > 
> > or better using a hyphen
> > 
> > 	Playboy - alles was Maennern Spass macht
> > 
> > would have been correct, as it's shown on the current web page
> > in a correct manner.
> 
> To be fair, a lot of the same rules exist for English.  The comma
> is not optional or left to preferences in English, either.  There
> are definite rules and it brings structure. 

That matches what I've learned in school, but it doesn't match
realitiy anymore. :-)

A famous thing is "comma in lists": Unlike German, where "and"
substitutes a comma, in English it seems to be valid to put a
comma infront of "and":

	He bought a glass, a towel, a toothpick, and a nose.

In German, that would be

	Er kaufte ein Glas, ein Handtuch, einen Zahnstocker
	und eine Nase.

There are in fact only two exceptions of "comma prior to 'and'"
in German. But I don't want to start a school lesson here. The
exceptions are closures and appended main clause. :-)



> Unfortunately, lots of people forget (or don't pay attention to)
> these rules, or, they are casual with them in the casual forms of
> communication, like email. 

Well, I don't think that the e-mail (as a medium) implies abandoning
rules for written language. Sure, it's "sloppy" very often, but it
should not mangle the languge in a way that the reader has to guess
or to ask for what the writer wanted to express. Proper spelling and
punctuation help a lot, and it should not be "too much struggle" to
get it right: children learn it in the early years in school, so why
should adults forget it?



> (And there are some people who believe that the "text" language
> is English -- OMG, WTF, GR8, B4, LOL, etc --
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_language )

There is also a transition of this written representation to spoken
language - some (young) people actually speaking like SMS.

I don't think that people actually confuse SMS text with the
actual english language. They could have done so almost 100 years
ago with Q groups and abbreviations used in amateur radio telegraphy
(and even in phone mode), ok dr om, hw? :-)

All those "specific language deviations" have their place and
are fully valid. It depends on context. For example, if you got
a business letter with every 3rd word spelled wrong and containing
"SMS and L33T slang", would you take it as a serious information?
Form and content have to match. Nobody would accept a tax form
printed on toilet paper, even if it would be 100% correct in all
content and number details.



> Wie mit deutscher Sprache, man kann (mit englischer Sprache) vieles
> mit der Wortstellung machen.  Und dazu, ist, natürlich, die richtige
> Anwendung (und Verständnis) der Grammatik wichtig.

Sure it is, but it's not about an 1:1 translation. You need to "think
in German" if you want to get it fully right. Baumkuchen... :-)

Your sentence would have been:

In der deutschen Sprache kann man (wie in der englischen Sprache)
vieles mit der Wortstellung machen. Dazu ist natürlich die richtige
Anwendung (und das Verstaendnis) der Grammatik wichtig.

That is little difference, but it makes a big difference in
readability. Note that the structure of a sentence, aided by
punctuation, is an important part during the reading experience.
Sentences that do not show any structure are hard to read and
to understand, and a missing comma can decide about life or
death easily:

	KILL HIM NOT WAIT UNTIL I ARRIVE

It's either "kill him, not wait until I arrive" or "kill him not,
wait until I arrive", and this translation is not very good as
"nicht" ~= "do not" cannot be represented so nicely as in the
german equivalent "sentence".

	Er begann seinen Hut auf dem Kopf zu essen.

is another (famous) example of how a missing comma can confuse
the reader: "He started eating the hat on his head" is the first
interpretation, even if "He started eating, (having) the hat on
his head", and the comma already makes this difference.



> (Like with the German language, one can do a lot with word order
> (in English).   And for that, the proper use and understanding of
> Grammar is important)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

Haha, nice! :-)

But pleese pay atension too, the new englis orfograffy which
make`s every thing easyer to under stand and, more freedems
to mak punctation and les speeling errer's.

Funkzionier't auch in, Deutsch! :-)



> Und "Playboy alles was Maennern Spass macht" ist 100% verständlich
> auf deutsch, da es einen richtigen Dativ Kasus gibt, im Gegensatz
> zu englischer Sprache.

It may be 100% understandable, but it's not correct, because it's
not a sentence or a grammatically valid construct. The translation
would have been (quite literally, I admit):

	Playboy everything what men fun makes

Again, a hyphen after the 1st word would it much more readable.



> (and "playboy -- everything that is fun for men" [in German] is
> 100% understandable in German, because there is a real dative case
> in German, unlike in english.)

In _that_ translation, you've used the hyphen correctly (which was
missing in the german version discussed).




PS: I'm admittedly a language nutsee, so I'm allowed to be right,
    at least in my native language. :-)



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...