svn commit: r334939 - head/stand/lua

[Kyle Evans]

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:34 PM, Devin Teske <dteske at freebsd.org> wrote:
>
> On Jun 11, 2018, at 5:32 PM, Kyle Evans <kevans at freebsd.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Devin Teske <dteske at freebsd.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 11, 2018, at 11:20 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Devin Teske <dteske at freebsd.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Devin Teske <dteske at freebsd.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Kyle Evans <kevans at FreeBSD.org> wrote:
>
> Author: kevans
> Date: Mon Jun 11 01:32:18 2018
> New Revision: 334939
> URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/334939
>
> Log:
> lualoader: Allow brand-*.lua for adding new brands
>
> dteske@, I believe, had originally pointed out that lualoader failed
> to
> allow logo-*.lua for new logos to be added. When correcting this
> mistake, I
> failed to do the same for brands.
>
>
> You’re doing an amazing job, Kyle.
>
> I continually see nothing but genuine effort toward feature parity which
> makes me think one day I can pass the reigns.
>
> Yeah, I will always love Forth. It will always hold a special place in my
> heart as that whacky language that simultaneously exudes great power while
> also having the image ability to induce vomiting 🤮 by the uninitiated.
>
> However, all that being said, I’d actually like to keep the Ficl boot
> stuff as an option through to 14.0 and here is why ...
>
> Last year we were looking to update from ficl3 to ficl4. That may not
> sound too exciting to most folks, but most folks don’t know the power that
> ficl4 brings — like the capability to use full networking in the loader! Can
> lua do that? How cool would it be to be able to communicate with the network
> from the loader before the kernel is even loaded into memory? I had a few
> hair-brained schemes left for Forth which might be exciting, lol
>
>
>
> The current boot loader can already communicate via NFS or TFTP today.
> Adding http would be easy, https would be harder due to crypto being huge
> and space being small (though bear ssl might be small enough).
>
> The last articulated plan in arch@ was that LUA will be default in 12, and
> we plan to remove FORTH in 13. Last time I said it there in February, there
> was only email agreeing that I could find. This matches the in-person
> consensus poll I took at BSDcan as well. I think it would take a very
> extraordinary set circumstance and severe problems with LUA to change those
> plans.
>
>
> At BSD Can there was the boot working group where we discussed that an FCP
> would be required to decide this.
>
>
>
> In the working group you weren't listening and being rather combative and
> demanding that I do stuff,
>
>
> I think that's an unfair characterization of the situation, but it doesn't
> matter -- that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
>
>
>
> so I stopped talking.
>
>
> Hopefully we can _start_ talking. As the principled author of this work, I
> want to have a say in its deprecation since I still maintain that body of
> work.
>
>
> It should not be taken as a sign of my consent, but more a sign of not
> wanting to get into a yelling match in public on a topic I thought had been
> settled months ago.
>
>
> Nobody asked *me* about how I would like to see *my* work removed from the
> tree. I think I should have a say.
>
> I think I've been pretty darn helpful in the process by providing
> substantive and helpful feedback to not only Kyle but also on the GSoC
> project etc. I've not stood in any ones way. For being so helpful, I would
> expect a level respect in this matter.
>
>
>
> I raised my desires that I would like to be able to flip a knob in 13 and
> reboot between Ficl and Lua, back and forth.
>
> Give people a choice until we have done a "shake-out" through an entire
> major version.
>
> An honest-to-goodness procession would be, in my mind:
>
> 13: Has both; both are installed. End-user can boot back and forth between
> the two
>
> Problems that arise in one or the other are non-critical because there is
> always an "out" by running the other.
>
> 14: Has both but both are not installed. The installer media doesn't even
> have it. You can't install the Forth booth stuff unless you twist a knob in
> buildworld, optionally going down the path of generating release media which
> has the Forth boot stuff.
>
> 15. It's removed from tree. You can't build Forth boot. Lua only. No
> looking back, no way to build it with Forth, to get Ficl you need to go to
> ports. A Ficl with FreeBSD boot words no longer exists and is no longer
> maintained. All of bhyve userboot also therefore uses Lua.
>
>
>
> That's way too long. 12 will have Lua by default, but you can build FORTH if
> you want has been the plan since February when I socialized this on arch at . I
> originally pitched coexistence, but there was little appetite for that.
>
> So I think a FCP discussed in arch@ is the right path forward.
>
>
> We sat on the GSoC for years. Why all of a sudden do we need to ship this in
> less than 6 months?
>
> There are new features in Forth for 12 and they work and Lua has not caught
> up to them (e.g., Boot Environments in the loader menu) and you want to make
> Lua the default in 12? This doesn't make sense.
>
>
> I have no comments on the rest- this discussion should mostly occur on
> the FCP that will be drafted shortly. We added Boot Environment
> support months ago at this point, and also added some other cool
> feature like auto-detecting kernels in /boot/* to be presented in the
> kernel selector.
>
>
> Would you be willing to update here for the benefit of those in this
> thread...
>
> Are you at feature parity yet?

Basically, yeah. There's a couple of environment variables not
respected that I could easily implement given, say, an hour or two.
OTOH, 'feature parity' is slightly rough to define as one has to weed
out what still makes sense in the Lua-based world vs. what gets a more
Lua-ish way of accomplishing the same task (e.g. with menu stuff).