[OT] Why did "enterprise" crap seem to win? (re: Virtualization, Java, Microsoft, Outsourcing, etc.)...
42linoge at gmail.com
Thu Oct 5 04:51:59 UTC 2017
Guys I honestly love you. I've been thinking about
the same for ages and sometimes I wondered if I
It all seems so over-everything. You really nailed
it when you said docker on AWS. It's absurd. Today
I had to do plenty of stuff dealing with virtuali-
zation and I really couldn't stop thinking that
jails would've done a better job but - as you
might guess - management does not like to hear
that kind of stuff.
Anyways, thanks for making my day. I sincerely
hope you're all doing great and that some day we
can retake what's rightfully ours.
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 1:29 AM, Polytropon <freebsd at edvax.de> wrote:
> Allow me a few comments. It will be mostly statements from my
> very limited individual point of view and experience.
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 10:10:04 -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote:
> > Why did C++ and Java seem win over C and shared object libraries?
> Java is the new COBOL, 'nuff said.
> No, actually not.
> Mastering C requires a proper understanding of how things work
> at a quite low level, and it also requires the ability to
> search for (and find!) modular components to incorporate into
> own projects (because not everyone wants to write a XML or
> CSV parser in C on his own). Those skills aren't taught at
> university or in vocational schools anymore, so C became a
> "magic language" which only old people and "nerds" can use
> So a self-amplifying mechanism has been built: Projects require
> the use of Java, and because they do, nobody learns C. And
> as there is nobody who can write C, those responsible for
> projects suggest Java.
> Nobody ever got fired for suggesting Java.
> > In the Unix model the general philosophy is precisely that is made up
> > of tiny little things that do one thing really, really well and are
> > able to operate with other tiny things by means of a common protocol
> > such as pipes etc.
> On the other hand, there is no problem creating LOB software
> entirely in C. Sure, this is hard, _really_ hard, but possible
> > What more encapsulation than shared objects, header files, and C
> > structs? if you want higher level there is for example, Perl with an
> > elegant XS interface to C which can in turn leverage all the
> > underlying O/S. Not only that, Perl (amongst other great "scripting"
> > langs) is multi-paradigm allowing you write software to tackle
> > problems in different ways, which are much more clearer than trying to
> > stick a square peg in a round hole approach of single paradigm
> > languages such as Java.
> When running on a Unix system, programs can also use omnipresent
> external tools, for example a "report generator" dynamically
> created as an awk script. Java may be a multi-OS choice ("write
> once, run everywhere"), but the systems it's actually being run
> on maybe do not have such tools...
> > And only after 30 years or so, do you start seeing some functional
> > paradigms come to Java and new languages over the JVM such as Scala.
> > When in fact these things have been with us for ages since Scheme,
> > Perl, etc. ? and these integrate beautifully with the underlying O/S.
> In marketing, it's important to tell people things are new, even
> though they aren't. ;-)
> > Why dis the industry degrade the languages as "scripting languages"
> > when in fact this is precisely what you want: simplicity, elegance and
> > tight integration to the O/S!
> Because they are only seen as "programming glue" and highly
> discouraged in the world of monolithic "one thing does all"
> > So why did the Java Virtual Machine concept win, instead of leveraging
> > the underlying O/S ? Was portability the only mermaid song ?
> This often-mentioned portability is mostly nonsense. As soon
> as you use some OS-specific hooks in your Java program - and
> you _do_ -, portability is gone. "This CRUD CRM only works
> with this one database subsystem which only runs on 'Windows'."
> > or was it
> > the promise of a language to protect us from the mediocre programmer ?
> No. As you can write bad programs in any programming language,
> some languages encourage writing shit more than others. Just
> have a look at "The Daily WTF" and their CSOD (code snippet of
> the day) articles. Guess what languages you'll find? Mostly
> Java and C#, the "business languages" of today.
> > What is the point of portability if it doesn't really leverage the
> > underlying O/S? I personally think portability is not only a myth
> > (i.e. Java is not really portable as people may think) and it's
> > actually pretty stupid and it's actually what you DON'T want.
> Users don't want to run their software on a changing OS, they
> want a "solution", i. e., a monolithic thing where they have
> someone to blame and to sue if things break.
> Improving things means change, and nobody wants to change.
> > What you really want IMHO is a fined-tuned architecture that not only
> > plays well with the underlying O/S but that actually leverages the
> > O/S, which makes it NOT portable by definition. Why do we want
> > portability in the first place? Does portability foster competition
> > and innovation or just makes everybody mediocre at best? Does it
> > increase security or performance? NO, it's actually the total
> > opposite!
> You easily see the borders of portability even for applications
> written for "Windows" exclusively: Do the update, break the program.
> I sadly have to deal with such crap on a weekly basis... :-/
> Sometimes you'd say certain platforms (hardware and OS) are
> better suited for specific jobs. This is the reason why still
> so much computing is done on mainframes, or why hardware control
> is done on things that are not regular PCs. Those platforms are
> different for a reason, but choosing the right platform can be
> hard when "qualified consultants" (quotes deserved) suggest you
> do it on a "Windows" PC.
> > Code reusability is mostly bullshit too, and what you wind up with,
> > AGAIN, is piles over piles of crap, wheel re-invention and duplication
> > of efforts.
> Definitely true.
> And add interoperability. You have a program that needs data A
> and does X, Y, and Z. And you also need to do V and W, but that's
> done with another program, where you also have to enter data A.
> You cannot transfer the data once acquired. No interface, no
> standard exchange format.
> > A quick look to the Java ecosystem is enough to show this
> > is fundamentally flawed. Even the simplest Java application winds up
> > bloated with megabytes (sometimes gigabytes) of crap in there that is
> > not doing anything but hampering performance and opening up all sorts
> > of security holes.
> This can be easily compensated with hardware resources. :-)
> > The same goes for the Windows world and C++ where
> > it gets even worse as every application you install is able to
> > overwrite critical system libraries.
> Again, this is fully intended and a "feature". A "security feature",
> if I remember correctly. :-)
> > Why did virtualization and outsourcing (AWS) seem to win over concepts
> > such a chroot and FreeBSD Jails and a good old sysadmin?
> You just said it: "old". Administration of a Unix system requires
> skills. Those are probably too expensive when you can easily take
> any person who is "in IT" (read: sits at a desk with a PC on it),
> and advertising tells you that it's so easy, no knowledge needed,
> does everything on its own, just click on the funny pictures and
> make money.
> > Why do we
> > really need full virtualization in the first place? Does it help in
> > performance or security? Does it reduce costs? On the contrary it does
> > neither, at least IMHO.
> An interesting approach is to run programs under a specific user.
> That "chroots" the process to the respective $HOME, still being
> able to benefit from the OS infrastructures and services.
> > HTF did we get such aberrations as Docker on an already virtualized
> > environment such as AWS??? I mean WTF is that? really? Why pile up all
> > those layers of shit to get what you could get with a real hardware
> > with FreeBSD and EzJail ?
> With solutions like Docker and immutable images, you are basically
> back to the past: Software loaded from ROM modules, immune to change,
> and everything is present in one big block: the OS, the libraries,
> the application program.
> > I write these reflections at a time when all these security breaches
> > such as Yahoo's 3 billion account breach and Equifax 145 million and
> > much more serious breach are happening and the situation will only get
> > worse because of all the piles, over piles and piles of shit the most
> > companies run on.
> Nobody cares. The end user pays the bills anyway.
> > So how did we get here? Why does industry insist on complicating stuff
> > instead of a complete back to basics approach?
> Because there are parasites that benefit from the status quo. Those
> are companies that offer "solutions" which only work with heavy
> vendor lock-in - or the customer could move to a more efficient
> solution that costs less. In order to avoid this, extensive
> marketing and PR is being performed to convince the decision-makers.
> Always keep in mind that those who make the decisions about what
> software to use aren't the ones who are forced to use that software
> (and deal with crashes, missing features, multiple work, etc.).
> Add long-running contracts with penalty fees, and everyone is
> happy. As I said, the end user pays.
> > Why is the answer to
> > these problems is more and more outsourcing and throwing even more
> > piles of crap and wasting money in the hopes that will fix the
> > fundamentally broken systems we have in place? What we need is a
> > radical back to basics approach to software engineering.
> This is due to the belief that you don't need to build something,
> instead just take what's already there (because it's being promised
> to be "the solution"). So no more thinking is needed. Every layer
> of abstraction, be it 3rd party OCO libraries, Internet-based
> services using an API, or simply handing off the work to a cheap
> shop (the cheapest one is just good enough) adds more crap. But
> as I mentioned, this can be compensated by machine power. :-)
> > Well at least not ALL industry. I think Apple made the right choice
> > when they decided to embrace NeXT (which is heavily based and inspired
> > on FreeBSD) and Objective-C from the start, creating highly-tuned
> > systems that are not only NOT portable in software terms but not even
> > portable in hardware terms!
> With this approach, Apple wanted to be able to offer a hardware and
> software combination (!) that they verified to work. Control over
> hardware makes software creation much easier, as you know your
> "moving parts" and don't have to introduce guesswork and abstractions
> for hardware. Apple's primary goal is not to sell an OS or a
> computer - they want to sell an "experience" where many things
> add up to the product.
> > Pardon the rant and have a wonderful day.
> I'd like to expand on one thing I briefly mentioned, because I
> think it could be important for the process:
> With articles like "Why can't programmers... program?" that
> question fundamental knowledge that "we" (skilled and experienced
> "old people") take for granted, the question comes up: Why are
> there no programmers who want to do good work?
> The reason is simple: Good work doesn't pay.
> This is for two reasons:
> Reason 1 is related to taxes. If you want to employ a really good
> programmer, this will cost you money. You don't get it for minimum
> wage. But personnel costs are bad on your balance sheet, as you
> cannot deduct those costs. So what do you do? Turn personnel
> costs into material costs, i. e., get consultants and external
> services who finally write you an invoice which can be deducted.
> Sure, they are often more expensive (!) than your own programmer,
> but hey, everyone does it that way! And now that the contract has
> been signed, there is no way back. Three rules justify all those
> actions: (1st) "We've always done it that way." (2nd) "We've
> never done it that way." (3rd) "Then anybody could do it."
> (The previous paragraph applies extremely in Germany.)
> Reason 2 is education. As I said, it requires a structured mind
> and a passionate heart to learn and use (!) languages like C or
> systems like Unix. From the beginning, you're not "business-y",
> because that would be "Windows" and Java and C#. Copypasting from
> the Internet without understanding what you're doing and still
> getting something that "somehow works, sometimes" seems to be
> sufficient to get a job today. Even when graduates fail in a
> simple FizzBuzz interview, hey, they are fresh out of university,
> so they must be good, right? A degree and lots of certificates
> open many doors, skills do not.
> You'd be surprised how many programmers you could find in the
> "jobless" section, but they'll probably never get a job again
> even though they educate themselves. This is because they often
> don't have access to an important resource: money.
> Let me explain: In order to get "monkey see, monkey do" jobs in
> IT where you don't need a fully functioning brain because you
> just press buttons when the bell rings, you need to be certified.
> This costs lots of money. But because it is being paid for, the
> result is easy to predict: No knowledge needed, just be visible
> when the courses are being held; pay your money, get your shiny
> sheet of paper. In many cases, employers send their underlings
> to such certification courses just to make the customers pay
> more ("But our consultants are certified!"). Only with money,
> you get access to this world. If novice programmers aren't
> lucky, they'll always stay on minimum wage, even though their
> skills and experience are better than those of the HPCs who
> tell them what to do.
> I've seen more than enough of those "qualified consultants"
> who make boatloads of money, but are stupid as hell. They
> are, in fact, excellent actors and influencers...
> Reason 3 - three! three reasons! - is social appeal. Just imagine
> you're actually understanding your work, and you do it better
> than others, then you're not a "team player", because you "make
> the other branch offices look bad and lazy". That's why it is
> not encouraged to improve things.
> Example from reality: I once worked for a shop where one person
> got a high wage for creating timesheet templates. Manually. She
> basically entered years, months, days and hours manually into a
> PC as if it was a typewriter. With additional microformatting.
> Every day. Every month. For years. When one of her coworkers
> suggested to automate the task basically by piping the output
> of "ncal" into a little awk script (he was a Linux person),
> he got yelled at for being "hostile to coworkers" and "threatening
> the staff". That's what you get when you use your brain.
> PC on, brain off.
> Sorry for the rant. :-)
> Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
> freebsd-questions at freebsd.org mailing list
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-
> unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
More information about the freebsd-questions