HTTPS on freebsd.org, git, reproducible builds
freebsd at edvax.de
Sat Sep 19 20:14:52 UTC 2015
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 22:31:05 +0300, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 08:47:45PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
> > > > In the end, it might look like there are few additional packages
> > > > that will be installed: sys_bin, sys_src, sys_ports and so on.
> > > > An update you perform with freebsd-update will then be an update
> > > > on the sys_* packages with pkg, leading to a binarily upgraded
> > > > operating system. You then _can_ upgrade your ports collection,
> > > > or you can leave it as is. This is the advantage of FreeBSD:
> > > > The OS and the additionally installed (3rd party) software are
> > > > beging dealt with independently.
> > > >
> > > > And this is good. :-)
> > >
> > > I am don't see advantage of this.
> > > What's part of systeam I am don't need to install?
> > The components won't be that separated. No direct "part of
> > the system" will exist, like, "do I install sh, or can I
> > live without it?"; I'd rather assume that there are only
> > few packages that result in a fully functional (!) operating
> > system. Still I hope the pkg approach will give you the
> > flexibility of src.conf - to omit components you _really_
> > don't need, and where you _intend_ to leave them out.
> # man src.conf | col -b | grep -c WITH
> and many items can't be do as packages.
Correct. I think the approach with pkg for the OS will be
the same as with most packages: A predefined set of options
will be the default, from which the packages are built. If
you _intend_ to use nonstandard options, use the source Luke
and compile the things yourself. You simply cannot maintain
2^227+ packages. :-)
> > > this is don't need released as package, when I need /usr/ports
> > > I am need it from svn (not from portsnap or else).
> > Installing the ports tree via pkg is the same as installing
> > the port tree via ports.txz - of course at the relase date.
> > Subsequent additions can be made with svn or portsnap (binary
> you can't be update bu svn not svned ports tree.
It's recommended to obtain a "clean" ports tree (initial
checkout) when you want to use svn; if you're going to
stay with portsnap, you can do this from a RELEASE ports
tree version without problems.
> > upgrades to ports tree - this is what a pkg upgrade of the
> > ports tree would probably look like).
> if you need ports tree -- most likely you need ports tree modification
> and this is disallow binary upgrades to ports tree.
For everything non-standard, poudriere is a nice tool.
Of course you can use "pkg lock" / "pkg unlock" if you
know what you're doing (and if it's just about less than
a handful of ports).
> > > src? also svn.
> > When you simply want the RELEASE sources, installing svn and
> > having it run is probably more work than simply downloading
> > src.txz and uncompressing it into /usr/src - again, this is
> > what pkg would do.
> Many imporvement happened between releases.
> If you accpeted RELEASE -- you mostly accpeted GENERIC kernel and
> don't need source anyway.
Correct - except you _intendedly_ want a non-GENERIC kernel.
In this case, you use the source version you want, updated
the way you chose. Anyway, if this is a concern, you _know_
what you're doing. Dealing with sources, even though easy,
is nothing the typical "n00b" user will do. :-)
> You can do WITHOUT_KERBEROS and WITHOUT_KERBEROS_SUPPORT and totaly
> remove kerberos suuport as library, binary and hooks in ssh, sshd,
> login and etc. How do this by pkg?
Probably you _don't_ do this with pkg. As I said in comparison
to ports (or regarding the OS, in relation to freebsd-update),
you do this from source. Binary packages simply _cannot_ accomodate
to exponentionally growing amounts of variations of options set
or not set. :-)
> > > Yes, I can build custom system with off some parts in src.conf, but
> > > this system will be very special and need some knowelege.
> > Exactly. That's why using pkg to install and upgrade the OS
> > won't significantly change the way you install things.
> Hmm. kernel+userland as mega-package? Or how?
Yes, I'd say that this is how it will be designed, compare
to kernel.txz + base.txz, as the installer (bsdinstall)
would use them. Of course it would also be possible to
use "sub-packages", each one representing a part of the
/usr/src subtree, but I assume this would be the wrong
way go - "dependency hell" preprogrammed. :-)
> Ports may be additional troubles (you software need php52, php52
> absent in modern ports tree, for example).
Right. Those are typical edge cases where the default
options and the precompiled binaries won't work. Just
imagine media software like mplayer: with all the codecs
(introduces new dependencies!) or only few ones, with
mencoder or not, with gmplayer/gmencoder GUI or not,
with skins or not... there cannot be packages for every
> > The OS's pkg binary is just a bootstrap loader for the real
> > one installed as a package. It's possible that the same
> > approach will be kept when pkg manages the OS components.
> And I am talk about imposible loading real one.
Without network connection - a big problem. But what's the
use of a binary upgrading tool without being able to reach
the remote source required? :-)
The idea of moving pkg out of the OS is - if I understood
the statements of its maintainers correctly - to allow
faster development and improvement of the pkg tool. It's
not directly tied to the system anymore (as the pkg_* tools
were), and because of that, it's a port, not an OS component.
The "not so fast changing" bootstrap loader therefore only
will get you "the real thing".
> > > Next, how to upgrade system? kernel first? ok. for this case kernel
> > > can't be depend from userland packages. How to upgrade to
> > > correspondend userland packages?
> > I'd say that a "pkg upgrade" of the userland and the kernel
> > have to go hand in hand, as it is suggested today, because
> > kernel and world have to be in sync. The operation will be
> > similar to what you do today with "freebsd-update upgrade".
> > Of course this requires a good coupling between the pkg port
> > and the (updated) OS.
> Upgrading kernel and userland don't match pkg ideology, IMHO.
That's a possible and valid way to see things: pkg is the
successor of the old pkg_* tools, which dealt with ports,
not with the OS.
> > If you're worried here, you should have a look at Boot
> > Environments (as known from Solaris): FreeBSD + ZFS + beadm
> > is a very good solution for preparing, testing, and maybe
> > rolling back upgrades.
> Not now. bsdinstall now use very bad partioning for BE.
When dealing with ZFS, I prefer not to deal with bsdinstall
and its "sane defaults"... it makes life easier. :-)
> > > What about -current?
> > The -CURRENT (or -HEAD) development branch will surely not
> > be available via pkg upgrades. They are, as today, done from
> > the source.
> Shit, you talk about unification and SUDDENLY we got two, incopatible
> way -- for current and fro stable.
It has always been that way: -CURRENT (or -HEAD) is a development
branch. It's not stable. There are times where the -CURRENT
version crashes right away. Sometimes, it won't even build! Update
some hours later, and it works again. Experimental features may
be introduced in -CURRENT, and two weeks later, those features
have been removed. There sometimes are (binary) snapshots. Then,
-STABLE is the branch where "refinement" takes place: It is the
branch from which -RELEASE will be "distilled".
The branches freebsd-update can follow are -RELEASE and the
errata branch -RELEASE-pN (where N is the patchlevel). For
following -STABLE or -HEAD, you _have to_ use the source Luke
(except for the snapshots mentioned).
> > > userland first? ok. Got new libs with missing syscals and we can't run
> > > any program.
> > Dynamic linking to the system's most essential library should
> > not break things. Stable interfaces are very important here,
> > so the upgrader won't be so stupid to shoot his own foot. :-)
> I am talk about reality. Staticaly linked svn, build on 9.x, don't run
> on 6.x system by missinc syscal. This is fact. As result I am build
> svn on 6.x system in VirtualBox.
Of course, because v6 and v9 are not using the same ABI (and API).
This is only guaranteed on -STABLE. If you need to run v6 software
on a v9 system, the compat6x-i386 port, for example, can be used
to privode "downward compatibility"; "upward compatibility" requires
a time machine. :-)
> > Please keep in mind that I'm just mentioning my own thoughts
> > here. I'm not part of the pkg development team. If you have
> > specific questions regarding the use and implementation of
> > the upcoming OS updating mechanism, you should contact the
> > designated maintainers.
> Who maintained this?
Check out "man pkg": "Please direct questions and issues to the
pkg at FreeBSD.org mailing list." as well as its "AUTHORS AND
Also see the list of authors here:
They might know (much better than me) how things are going to be
developed, and what plans they have for the future.
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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