well, try here first...

[Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC]

On Nov 13, 2012, at 9:48 PM, Polytropon wrote:

> That matches what I've learned in school, but it doesn't match
> realitiy anymore. :-)
> 
> A famous thing is "comma in lists": Unlike German, where "and"
> substitutes a comma, in English it seems to be valid to put a
> comma infront of "and":
> 
> 	He bought a glass, a towel, a toothpick, and a nose.
> 
> In German, that would be
> 
> 	Er kaufte ein Glas, ein Handtuch, einen Zahnstocker
> 	und eine Nase.


This is interesting, because the comma before the "and" in a list is much more understandable, because it is open to less interpretation.   This is where the "eats shoots and leaves" comes in, kind of.  There are similar examples where ambiguity arises from the lack of a comma before "and" in a list.   The comma before the "and" is traditional English.   There are, however, lots of people who advocate for the lack of a comma before the "and" in a list and that is taught in some classes in some schools.

I don't claim to be a great German speaker or writer.   I have not visited there in 12 years nor lived there in almost 20 years.  But people at least can understand me and I can get my point across.  :)

Most of my post was meant to support what you were saying, btw.   As well as give examples and interesting tidbits.  I agree that proper grammar is important in language, even when I don't always use it or do it; especially in informal speech like email lists, forums, etc.

> But pleese pay atension too, the new englis orfograffy which
> make`s every thing easyer to under stand and, more freedems
> to mak punctation and les speeling errer's.
> 
> Funkzionier't auch in, Deutsch! :-)


You must really be taking a conniption fit with the changes (Verbilligen -- cheapening --  though the exact words I was searching for have failed me tonight)  that have happened in German in the last 10 or so years ( striking of ß; to always be written with "ss" now, etc)...

>> 
>> Und "Playboy alles was Maennern Spass macht" ist 100% verständlich
>> auf deutsch, da es einen richtigen Dativ Kasus gibt, im Gegensatz
>> zu englischer Sprache.
> 
> It may be 100% understandable, but it's not correct, because it's
> not a sentence or a grammatically valid construct. The translation
> would have been (quite literally, I admit):
> 
> 	Playboy everything what men fun makes

Actually, no.   A more correct translation would be:    Playboy everything that to men fun makes.

[Or, if you wanted the same mistake (lack of comma or hyphen) but proper English word order:   Playboy everything that is fun for men.]

"Männern" is dative case, which, when used without a preposition, is best translated as "to <something>" where <something> is written with dative case endings.

> 
> Again, a hyphen after the 1st word would it much more readable.
> 
> 
> 
>> (and "playboy -- everything that is fun for men" [in German] is
>> 100% understandable in German, because there is a real dative case
>> in German, unlike in english.)
> 
> In _that_ translation, you've used the hyphen correctly (which was
> missing in the german version discussed).
> 


Yes, my bad.  I was trying to write it the same but fixed it unconsciously.


regards
Chad