Invitation (waaaaay off-topic)

Simon Tibble simon at
Tue Feb 15 01:48:22 UTC 2011

On 14/02/11 23:42, Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 09:47:11PM +0000, Simon Tibble wrote:
>> On 14/02/11 21:12, David Kelly wrote:
>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 08:54:59PM +0000, Simon Tibble wrote:
>>>> Now, see, I can't help thinking that if we all just abandoned money
>>>> then the motivation for people to do this sort of thing would then
>>>> disappear - would it not?
>>> Without money, how would we keep score to know who is winning?
>> By measuring ones contribution.  This can be quantified by creating a
>> system whereby one's output is measured.  It is not a credit system,
>> rather a combination of reputation (feedback of others) and how much
>> produce or time you effect.  Try to think ebay without the money, and
>> instead of leaving feedback after every transaction you only leave the
>> feedback just once (how do you feel about the other person? good/bad).
> Broken.  Won't work.  It's too bureaucratic for too little (immediate)
> return to catch on, and its bureaucracy would guarantee long-term
> corruption.

This sort of idea will take years to catch on and will be a gradual
process.  In fact, it has already started in the (primitive) form of
free open-source software.

As for the corruption, at least in a organised contribution based system
all data will be available for all to see, unlike the corruption we have
today.  Personal preference: if I can have check-able corruption or
hidden corruption - I'd choose check-able every time.  In fact, I think
you'd find people would come to the forefront by actually boasting they
are the most sound people with solid principles as a result of it being
open for audit by anyone at anytime.  And because it relies on the
opinion of others it would be a better framework to build on (see eBay's
feedback system as an introduction to a the value of mass-opinion).

> We'll probably evolve semi-naturally to a reputation based economy as
> advancing technology eliminates a lot of basic-needs scarcity, but that's
> just speculation.  In the meantime, "money" is really nothing but a
> scalable way to lubricate the process of trade.  The more you centralize
> the management of money (or its replacement), the less efficiently it
> works -- and trying to quantify "contribution" through some uniform
> system as you suggest would require absurd levels of centralization.
Yes, it would be absurd to introduce it over night, but not more absurb
than the proposed "Bankor" currency headed our way.  It's probably just
about the same amount of admin, only with a website it would eliminate
the need for turning trees into notes/paper.

Also, the people who control the current money efforts conduct their
affairs behind closed doors and avoid scrutiny.  In an open system
people will be able to not only see the workings (the maths behind it)
and they will also be able to vote on it and change it (mass opinion
outweighs the individual).

> If you really want to do away with money, the best way to do it is to
> advance the state of the art of automation technology.  You can do this
> by contributing expertise, time, and money (in decreasing order of
> importance) to copyfree [0] and open source [1] software development
> projects such as FreeBSD.  Trying to distract the people contributing to
> such projects with pie-in-the-sky manifestations of song lyrics from the
> early '70s [2] is actually counterproductive to that aim.
Whilst I agree with you on most of this, I want to point out that the
greatest portion of the available workforce are in front of Facebook
drooling over Justin Beiber.  The sooner the masses are awoken to the
truth and shown that a different way of living is even possible, only
then will we move in the most positive direction at the fastest speed
possible.  Hence, some think I "spam" simply because I am part of many
who are attempting to raise awareness of this issue.

There really is nothing more important that this non-utopian alternative
life choice.

>> But don't mind me.  I'm a crazy man with random mumbles.
> That's good advice.  I should follow it.
I believe American's use the word "kook".  Is that right?  (assuming
your from the states)

> # NOTES:
> [0]
Sorry dude, this is based on an inherently flawed "Law" system.  Try to
always remember that a "law" is just what one guy says another can or
cannot do.

> [1]
Top notch link dude.  Awesome.  Thanks!  I am definitely reading this
one.  I'm ashamed to say I've read most of the open source docs, but not
this one.

> [2]
If we're referencing popular culture, I call on Bill Hicks to do my bidding:

"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to
go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are.
And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and
chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun,
for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they
begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other
people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey - don't
worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride..." And we...
kill those people.

"We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of
worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be
real." Just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell
us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it
doesn't matter because: It's just a ride. And we can change it anytime
we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and
money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want
you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The
eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to
change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that
we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding
and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many
times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space,
together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace. Thank you very much,
you've been great."

Sorry to any and all for the waaaaay offtopicness.

Simon Tibble
simon at

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