this is probably a little touchy to ask...

Jules Gilbert jules.stocks at
Tue Sep 14 16:11:32 UTC 2010

I'm the guy who started this thread.

First, I'm not unhappy with any of you.  Each of you, every single
person who has, at any time, been a member of the team working on
*any* FBSD sub-system, has contributed more than me.  I don't
criticize you, I salute you, thank you.

And stop throwing bricks at each other, we, the users, continue to
need your skills and your contributions.

Now, I wrote my note for a reason -- which no one seems to have
touched on (maybe I missed it, that's certainly possible.)

A typical FBSD user wants to be able to do a ports-based install, or
perhaps a pkg_add and, presto, out of the box, have a browser.

And, here it comes...  Wait for it.

Without too much trouble, have a running Java, connect to that browser
and working.  And it doesn't matter if some of us like or don't like
Java.  It's here and it's staying here.  In ten years, and probably in
twenty years, it will still be an important part of a typical OS

I understand that Sun declined to allow pre-built configurations to be
shipped.  Okay.

Now, (here I am not asking for a public response, nor am I suggesting
that anyone email me privately about this,) does anyone have an "in"
with Oracle management?

Because we need Oracle to reverse their decision in this matter
(remember, they inherited Java from Sun, but their management team is
slowly buying in to the decisions that Sun made.  We want to give the
Oracle people good reasons to change their thinking in regards to

It may be theoretically possible for a current user to build, say, a
Firefox browser with a working Java, but this happens at a time when
that new machine is just coming up.  One mistake sometimes makes the
builder unsure what he needs to change in his environment to try again
(boy, is that me!)

So, assuming we can't get real change from Oracle, can we at least
provide much better install instructions for naive users.  Please.
(And I am hoping that my notes generate both short-term fixes as well
as more permanent policy changes on the part of Oracle.)

Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java
sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle.
(It's called Open Source.)

It would help me if the FreeBSD website provided somewhat better
descriptions of the programs offered.  Those descriptions are perfect
-- if you already know what you're doing.  But in this area I am a
naive user.  For example:  Do JDK's (java development kit's,) provide
anything for an end-user?  Or are they only useful for people building
applications?  Also:  To run Java with a browser, do I need anything
more than a client run-time environment?  If so, what?

Oh, one more thing... I don't do compiler stuff anymore, I did once.
And to those of you who want to toss Java, you've got a lot of work to
do, not only in terms of overcoming the number of applications but
also the design, the people who've worked on it did great work.  It's
not going away.  What will happen is what's already happening, stuff
like IceTea is being built.  But scrapping Java?, not for at least 25
years, more probably.

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Jules Gilbert <jules.stocks at> wrote:
> About Java.  Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser.
> Some questions:
> Is GNU java sufficient?  I need to be able to run a browser with Java.
>  No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz.
> I'm trying to do an 8.1 install.
> Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS?
> Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way
> to do this.
> Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
> around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
> that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.
> Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past
> three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting
> the FreeBSD community.

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