BigApache for Windows - Why doesn't BSD have an installer

[Jerry McAllister]

> 
> --- Giorgos Keramidas <keramida at freebsd.org> wrote:
> > Some times, it's better to install smaller packages that work together
> > in a well-known way, than huge mega-monsters that break in unexpected
> > ways later on.
> Firstly, thnx Giorgos for responding!
> 
> All I want from BSD to is a Rock Solid Web Server with as default:
> - FreeBSD+Minimilist GUI(wmaker will do)
> - File Manager(got xfe working)
> - Editor(got nedit installed)
> - Apache+Mod_SSL+MySQL+PHP+Mod_Perl
> - Firewall (is one installed as default ??)
> - Web Browser(Mozilla installed but its slow - will try firefox later)
> Thats all, nothing else!
> 
> I would have thought that with so many people running BSD Web Servers, 
> that there would be a
> similar default install out-of-the-box out there...

Yes, but with so many people running BSD, there probably are nearly
that many different combinations of features that have been chosen.
FreeBSD users tend to cherish that freedom to do it their own way and 
not be condemned to whatever some weenie in a cube somewhere decided
they should be required to run.

On the other hand, some people have put together their own standard
set of OS + ports and made up a sort of package that they install on
all the systems they manage.  Tools are available for that in the
FreeBSD world.   But, note that unlike the MS world, those people
still selected what they wanted and made it their way first, before 
going on to build an installable set.    We actually do that here.
We even have our own custom made installation process.  Our sites 
just plop in the CD and only have to enter in their desired host name, 
IP, gateway, nameserver, etc and it does everything including deciding 
how to slice and partition their disk for them.  But, I don't imagine 
very many persons who are not using our type of service would want 
that exact system.   So, they make their own.

> 
> I guess my problem is I know where all the files go on my Windows box, 
> but I am not sure where the
> files go on the BSD box when an install goes wrong. If the pkg_delete 
> fails, how do I manually
> remove the files for a failed [Apache+Mod_SSL+MySQL+PHP+Mod_Perl] 
> installation ??

Generally I have had better luck finding things on FreeBSD than ever
on a MS system, but even on FreeBSD it can take some looking.  Mostly,
things are systematic and fairly logical once you are familiar with the
system.   But, remember that ports come from many places and people.  They
are not created by the FreeBSD core team, but by anyone who wants to submit
a port.   There are some requirements for how to make them install right
using the ports system, but otherwise, the port maintainer is the one who
designs and implements it all and there are many independant port maintainers.

Their are tools such as find(1) and ls(1) in combination with wild-cards 
and grep(1) that help a lot.  For pretty much everything installed from 
ports, start looking in /usr/local.  Also, look under the port itself in 
such places as /usr/ports/category/port/work and such.   Example, for 
the vim editor, there are a lot of files in /usr/ports/editors/vim/work 
that are residue from the install process.

>  
> > ...  much deleted
> 
> ...
> sorry about, thought I did - here goes:
> 
> - Installing Packages is nice & easy & straight forward from the docs(should be more of these!)
> - Installing ports/packages via ftp/net - Forget it!!
> I have barely got BSD running, the last thing I want is connecting a BSD 
> box to my broadband
> connection ?? Does BSD have a default firewall ?? Don't know, having 
> trouble installing stuff let
> alone configuring a firewall via scripts/files

You are probably better off and more secure with an initial install, with
no additional work or tweaking, of FreeBSD on the net than you would be
with a MS system with every know "fix" available.   The system is 
inherently more secure and in addition - and maybe partially because of
this - fewer, by far,  attempts at cracking FreeBSD are made than are
made against MS systems.  Some of this is, of course, because there are
much fewer FreeBSD systems out there to tempt kiddies.  But, the fact
that cracking FreeBSD is more difficult contributes to this effect.

> Currently as we speak, I am getting about a hit every 10 seconds from 
> worms... thankfully being
> caught by my firewall on my Windows 2000 box.

Generally, FreeBSD is immune to those worms and viruses.  You would be
safer turning off your MS machine and reading your Email only on
any UNIX system such as FreeBSD.   Of course, you can also configure
procmail and install spam assassin to help reduce the annoyance of
that traffic.   But, in the meantime you don't have to worry that those
worms will be finding a welcome host for their misdeeds.

> 
> >> Why isn't it easy for you to install all these things on FreeBSD?
> 
> Specifically, its the ./configure business of the different installations & 
> the pedantic order
> which to install the different Apache modules etc..

Yes, there is a learning curve, but it is a price you pay to be using
a more powerful, secure and sophisticated OS with a lot of choices to
be made.   Hear again, you are not stuck with what some artificial world
developer decides for you.  You make the choices and do the work.  That
part does take more work, but the end result is nearly always much more
satisfactory.

> Then its going step by step with the install guides & when I try to install MySQL, I type #
> groupadd mysql & I get "command not found" ... ??? no idea, I am following the install guides...
> now if I am doing the same as everyone else with a fresh install of BSD, why is it no one else
> gets groupadd mysql "command not found" ??

What does "commmand not found" sound like it means?
The shell doesn't know how to find the command you typed in.
Either you didn't update your search path to include the directory
it is in or it didn't get installed correctly where it should be.
Probably the first is true.  So, find out where it should be and
add that directory to the path.   See man path.

> I just don't see the point of compiling each program from source. - But 
> if I try to install all of
> them from the packages, then it breaks down. 

Mostly, again because different people make different decisions about
what to put on their system and that means compilation/linking can be
different.   Even if you don't type anything different, the system
may know, based on what you are doing that different/additional library
calls need to be built in, etc.

- I am used to from Windows, 
> installing from
> packages, then once everything is installed & running, I go back & tweak the apps to my likeing
> 
> BSD wants me to do the tweaks in configuration files prior to compiling from source BEFORE I have
> had a chance to fiddle with the app to SEE what needs to be tweak. ie installing PHP the setting
> of mm should be --without-mm  ?? what the... that should be a tweak AFTER its installed not
> before... 
> 

See above notes about learning curve.
It is also, for better or worse, an iterative process.   The change you
make today may reveal something else you want to change or add tomorrow.

> then manually chmod because for some reason, even though I am logged in as root, all files are not
> by default excute/write accessable

Nice choice for preventing accidentally trashing stuff.  Be thankful for 
this.  You should have to be very intentional about modifying and even 
executing some files.  It is not quite as cutsie and annoying as the MS 
habit of making you click numerous verification boxes, but it serves a 
similar purpose.

> 
> ..oops ranting again... what the manual needs, is more step-by-step screen shots so things are
> less hit & miss - not just for the install process, but for something like install a Web Server
> with its modules - Apache+Mod_SSL+MySQL+PHP+Mod_Perl
> 

Documentation is an ever growing need.   There is no doubt about this.

> > Note that OpenSSL is part of the base system in FreeBSD.  Unlike
> > Windows, where in the best case it's considered an "add-on" that you have
> > to add later.  You don't need to add anything to your FreeBSD system to
> > have OpenSSL support, provided you keep the system itself relatively up
> > to date, using the recommended update instructions of the Handbook or
> > the file /usr/src/UPDATING.
> I assume I would need to be connect to the net for this... but I would 
> first need to secure the
> system from attack BEFORE I connect - maybe this should be the first 
> part of the docs, straight
> after installing BSD+GUI+Editor+FileManager but BEFORE installing Apache

Again, you are much safer on the net with a FreeBSD system.
Just do it.   I do all my installs over the net.
Do use appropriate precautions such as ssh instead of telnet and ssl
protected sites where possible and check md5-s of downloaded files.
But, don't let it stop you from using it with FreeBSD.

>  
> > > OPTIONAL:
> > > IMAP
> > Exactly what we have now.  You can use the Ports to install all of the
> > above and a lot more.  There are more than 10,000 ports in the FreeBSD
> > collection now; a number that is far larger than anything Microsoft
> > Windows can boast about for programs that are tightly integrated to its
> > system, are available for any version of Windows and work mostly out of
> > the box with minimal changes *if* any are needed at all.
> 
> Yes, but at the moment, I am manually saving ports/packages from my Windows Box on CD then put
> this into my BSD CDROM & installing from there - if I am lucky & they are packages, then its fast
> & simple - if its installing ports, then its slow, time consuming & prone to getting errors!

That is a much more dangerous way of doing it than just doing the
install the normal way if you are worrying about some worm/virus
corrupting things or attacking your system while on the net.

>  
> > When you don't know how to do something, this list is the place to ask.
> 
> When I try my next install(its now 2.00am), I will report back my findings... in more detail!
 
>  
> > you still haven't mentioned what the exact nature of those problems was.
> 
> .. will get back in an hour or so when I try another install
> 
> 
> > > - with FreeBSD & Windows 2000 installed on the SAME computer, the GUI
> > > of Windows 2000 is MUCH faster than any of the BSD window managers
> > 
> > That's in vivid contrast to the general feeling of "speed" that
> > thousands of FreeBSD users have reported so far.
> > 
> > Actually, fvwm2 can be shown to have a very small memory footprint and
> > still a usable look that doesn't lack some of the nice features of
> > Windows 9x.  I've even seen themes of fvwm2 that resemble and mimic the
> > Windows XP look without requiring 128 MB of system memory just to get
> > started.  I'm not sure why you claim that Windows is faster/lighter but
> > if you do have raw numbers to back your claim up I'd be interested to
> > see them.
> 
> Raw numbers no... just sitting in front of the BSD screen counting the seconds.. wondering how
> people use this OS - then I do a reboot & select WIN2000 & can't believe the difference.
> If you want, when I have time, I could take an mpg of it & upload it for all ??
> 

It sounds a lot like you may have some processes wanting to check
themselves via the net upon startup that are holding things up
during boot.   They will each wait until they time out before
things move on.   I have several dual-boot machines, WinXP/FreeBSD,
Win2k/FreeBSd and Win95/FreeBSD and they all boot in about the same
amount of time with the FreeBSD being maybe a mite faster to get to
my login than the MS stuff being able to get to a state where I can
actually do something - eg not just getting the spash screen or background
displayed.   So, either plug in the net or disable those utilities that
want to talk and try things again.

One final comment that covers everything in the rest of the rant.
If you really want MS, then use MS.   If you want to experiment
with FreeBSD, try and learn it and be open to the FreeBSD way of
doing things and do it that way for a while.  Ask lots of questions
be don't assume something is awful until you really understand it 
and can make realistic comparisons.   There are things that can
be improved in FreeBSD (there are a large number of volunteers
who are working on making improvements) and documentation can always
be improved (what MS documentation?? - they now include a sheet of
pictures to show where to plug in the cords and a large booklet with
disclaimers in many languages, but nothing useful and the online stuff
is often meaning less, click on the ? and it just repeats the name of
the program or some such.  There is nothing that explains what is under
the covers.  FreeBSD documentation at least tries to explain how things
work and what to do to make it work, even though it is a little difficult
at first if you don't know what to look up).   

But, there is a reason that so many serious computer users choose UNIX 
including FreeBSD and eschew MS and  such when they are trying to get 
real work done.  So, relax and see if you can discover some of that.

////jerry

>  
> > for a FreeBSD newcomer, don't hesitate to ask.
> > 
> > There are no stupid questions.  There are, however, many knowledgeable
> > and helpful people on this list.
> 
> thnx ... I will report back then with any problem I encounter on my next try :)
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> DK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-questions at freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
>