Ports system quality and trolling

Doug Barton dougb at FreeBSD.org
Mon Aug 29 02:35:03 UTC 2011

On 08/28/2011 17:24, Jerry wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 16:26:29 -0700
> Doug Barton articulated:
>> Including postmaster@ on this since IMO Jerry has earned himself a
>> short vacation from posting privileges.
> Perhaps you would care to tell me yourself. It could be arranged.

Errrr ... huh?  I really hope that's not supposed to be an implied
threat of physical violence. Otherwise I completely fail to understand
what you're getting at.

>> On 8/28/2011 3:40 PM, Jerry wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:43:14 -0700
>>> Doug Barton articulated:
>>>> On 8/28/2011 1:54 PM, Michal Varga wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 15:30 -0400, Sahil Tandon wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Criminal?  Indifference?  This sort of troll-ish hyperbole is
>>>>>> decidedly unhelpful. 
>>>> FWIW, I agree with Sahil that this post of Jerry's was over the
>>>> top, as several of his have been of late. To use the word
>>>> "criminal" in this context is sufficient all on its own. To accuse
>>>> people who spend an enormous amount of their own free time trying
>>>> to make this thing work of being indifferent is just plain rude.
>>> Specifically, I said "borders on criminal". Get your facts straight.
>> I'm not sure why you think that makes a difference. The point that
>> Sahil and I are trying to make is that both your words and your tone
>> are, at best, unhelpful.
>> No one who is involved with actually making things work around here
>> believes that the system has no flaws. Quite the contrary, we know the
>> flaws better than most users. But a constant stream of angry messages
>> doesn't do anything to improve the situation.
>>> Second, I was specifically referring to the act, not the
>>> individual. In addition, "Spending enormous amounts of time" !=
>>> "valid excuse". A mass murderer can spend enormous amounts of time
>>> planning his crime. Does that absolve him from the actual crime?
>> You seem to be operating under the assumption that we owe you
>> something, and that by failing to provide that thing we owe you we
>> have wronged you somehow. You may wish to take a step back and
>> consider that premise in light of what you're paying for this
>> stuff. :)
> So, to follow that statement to its logical

... I don't think that word means what you think it means ...

> conclusion, you are
> inferring that if user is not paying for a product they have no right
> to expect quality. OK, now I can better understand where you are coming
> from.

I would never tell someone what they can, or cannot expect, that would
be absurd. What I can say is, given the circumstances an expectation
that all things FreeBSD will be perfect is not reasonable, and likely to
lead to disappointment.

>>>> FWIW, my experience has not been even close to yours, although I do
>>>> find broken things occasionally.
>>> I have 1,112+/- ports installed on any given day on one of my
>>> machines. Your statement, without knowing your exact configuration,
>>> applications, etcetera is not a valid counter statement.
>> And yet, you felt totally comfortable in criticizing it anyway.
>> Without trying to toot my own horn (since this was a minor part of my
>> overall point) I have a non-trivial number of ports installed on my
>> personal systems, support hundreds more on (at least) 4 different
>> combinations of FreeBSD versions and architectures on a regular
>> basis, develop portmaster for people who are using it for massive
>> package building clusters (as well as personal use of course), and
>> receive portmaster-related bug reports from users of an even wider
>> variety of ports. As a result I have a fairly good window into the
>> state of the ports tree at any given time.
> You have also asked for and I assume received monetary compensation
> for your services. In other words, get off your high horse. You are not
> some type of saint.

I never said I was. I'm simply pointing out that I actually do have a
fairly good grasp of the situation. I'm also very lucky in terms of
having been given financial support for some of my FreeBSD work, which
is extremely unusual amongst our developer community.

>>> The root problem is group mentality. Attempting to convey a message
>>> that runs counter to the "group" is like making a statement against
>>> the Pope, or the towel head god,
>> ... and here is where you go completely over the top. This kind of
>> statement does absolutely nothing to add to the substance of your
>> argument, and in fact detracts from whatever valid points you may be
>> making.
> I can switch from formal academic language to a charmingly
> colloquial style depending on the audience. It got your attention so it
> obviously worked.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. :)

More to the point, I chose to make a last-ditch effort to try and
communicate with you in a civil manner even though a lot of other people
have written you off already (meaning, they are simply deleting your
posts unread). I see now that I've wasted my time.

> Darn, did I upset you? The FreeBSD community in general has a
> wide and variegated opinion as to what is wrong with the OS in general.
> Attempting to stifle that is about as useless as an ostrich sticking
> their head in the sand.

Who said anything about stifling opinion, or developers not
understanding that there are problems? Did you read my post?
Particularly this bit:

	No one who is involved with actually making things work around
	here believes that the system has no flaws. Quite the contrary,
	we know the flaws better than most users. But a constant stream
	of angry messages doesn't do anything to improve the situation.

What some of us are trying to get you to see is that:

a) Your expectations are probably not realistic, and
b) Your tone is both offensive, and unacceptable.

> The difference here is in the basic concept of
> how you perceive FreeBSD in general. You see what it is and consider it
> good enough.

LOL .... I've been working on improving it for 15 years, and advocating
for a variety of major changes and improvements both publicly and
privately. I'm one of the *last* people who would ever say that FreeBSD
is "good enough."

> Oh, by the way, YES, I do have the right to lash out. I am not your
> slave you moron. I fought for the right to speak and be free and I will
> not let an asshole like you tell me who I can speak to or what I can
> say. Get use to it. And if I hurt your feeling, good!

So, (last time), I don't think "free speech" means what you think it
means. You have the right to say anything you want, but you don't have
the right to use someone else's resources to do it.

Doug (or put another way, you have the right to speak, you don't have
the "right" to be heard)


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