[RFC/P] Port System Re-Engineering

[Chuck Robey]

Paul Schmehl wrote:
> Here's a hint that would help a *ton* of users.  Don't try to install a 
> port until your ports tree is up to date.  Completely up to date - as 
> is, run portsnap or cvs or cvsup *first*, *then* try to install your port.
>>
>> I have several possible solutions (contact me privately if you want
>> more detail) but am purposely not stating them publically so as not to
>> taint the survey any more then it needs to be.
>>
> This is the part I don't get.  If you have suggestions, post them.  Post 
> the code that implements your suggestions.  *Then* people can evaluate 
> whether or not your suggestions add value to the ports system.
> 
> Why the silly games?  As I read them, this seems to be the primary 
> objection of all the people responding who have @freebsd.org in their 
> email address.  They've heard it all before, but they know that actions 
> speak much louder than words.  If you say "the implementation of foo is 
> flawed", and then you post code that, IYO, improves it, people with 
> experience and knowledge can review it and say, "Hey, nice idea" or 
> "sorry, your code would break ports and here's why".
> 
> Without the code, all the surveys and gesticulations in this tread 
> accomplish little except to irritate people.
> 

Why the silly games?  I get the feeling that Aryeh is honestly not 
understanding that he's trying to change the basic way that things get 
done in FreeBSD.  He doesn't see that.  In industry, first a decision is 
made that a market exists for such and such, then a study is made as to 
what could be done realistically.  We don't operate that way.

What we're all afraid of, Aryeh, is that you're going to run off with 
your poll of what you believe is needed (when we haven't even agreed 
that anything is needed) and you'll code something up, under the 
completely wrong misapprehension that if you code something up that does 
what the poll results said, it would get added in, pal, that's totally, 
totally false, you can ask any committer whatever, you will never get 
any apriori agreement on the adding of code, no matter what, until we 
can see the code.  This has been endlessly argued in the past, and folks 
have certainly left FreeBSD over it, but it will not change.

If you can't see that, then we will remain at loggerheads.  If you can 
see that, then quit asking folks to agree on stuff without showing us 
code.  I don't care how much research you do on what is needed, you will 
never change that fact, all you're going to do is trigger knee-jerk 
reactions from folks who have been *very highly* sensitized by prior 
attempts to change that rule.  It's not gonna happen, and you strongly 
seem to be trying an end-run around it.  If you honestly aren't, then 
you need to do a better job of convincing folks of that fact.

That's what it all boils down to, anyone disagree, at base?