R: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2
Salvatore Albanese
salvatore at oems.ch
Tue Mar 19 20:39:16 UTC 2013
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: owner-freebsd-advocacy at freebsd.org
[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy at freebsd.org] Per conto di
freebsd-advocacy-request at freebsd.org
Inviato: martedì, 19. marzo 2013 13:00
A: freebsd-advocacy at freebsd.org
Oggetto: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk)
2. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav)
3. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk)
4. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Chris Benesch)
5. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav)
6. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Chris Benesch)
7. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Alexander Leidinger)
8. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk)
9. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700
From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com>
To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no>
Cc: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander at leidinger.net>,
advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID:
<CAOgwaMsf2xN0kptBt6j6N7xcvUF0xQK+JgosHRS54xc60fctUw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 4:33 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no> wrote:
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no> writes:
> > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our
> > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side.
>
> I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k
> packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as
> the ports tree (~24k ports).
>
> DES
> --
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des at des.no
>
>
>
For me , actually , important problem is "How many packages are supplied
with a distribution .iso ?"
This point is important , because when a distribution is installed ,
whether it will produce a workable / usable environment for a (i) server ,
or (ii) desktop user .
I am continuously installing many Linux distributions . Approximately they
are supplying 2000 packages per distribution . With respect to selected
features ( Desktop , Development , Education , etc. ) , the installed
packages is varying between 1000 to 2500 .
After completion of installation , it is possible to use the installed
system without making any parameter adjustments . I am using KDE . The only
required adjustments are the following ( for me ) :
>From KDE Settings ( when I try Gnome from its menus ) :
Disable screen saver ,
Disable power saving ,
Disable gesture , etc. usage ,
Enable removable media automatic mount
In Dolphin ( File Manager ) :
Enable double click to activate a selection , Select view mode as detailed ,
Select displayed file attributes , etc.
These are the same for FreeBSD also ( except enable of automatic mount of
removable media , selections are ignored ) .
The rest in FreeBSD is a nightmare :
As it is installed :
Install many packages by pkg_add .
When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started :
Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock .
To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it .
As a result : Only an unusable installation is generated .
For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during install
, there is NO any way to install them .
It is necessary to be an "Expert" to be able to install them .
This structure is driving the FreeBSD in
http://distrowatch.com/
"Page Hit Ranking" around 500 at the ranking greater than 20 ( means a small
user base with respecto total Linux user base ) .
With this installation structure ( not the installer program / script ) ,
FreeBSD can not be widely adopted , because of like or dislike of it , but
not being able to use it .
Thank you very much .
Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:35 +0100
From: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no>
To: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com>
Cc: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander at leidinger.net>,
advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID: <86hak86cz8.fsf at ds4.des.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com> writes:
> Install many packages by pkg_add .
> When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started :
> Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock .
> To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it .
That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a
functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks.
The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to talk
to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf.
> For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during
> install , there is NO any way to install them .
because of this:
http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html
We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) to
ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with a full
set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude.
DES
--
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des at des.no
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0700
From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com>
To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no>
Cc: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander at leidinger.net>,
advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID:
<CAOgwaMv3wjLQu383ok5zqGtk__n=5aeCXXMB_ajzYePu0jp6og at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no> wrote:
> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com> writes:
> > Install many packages by pkg_add .
> > When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started :
> > Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock .
> > To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it .
>
> That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a
> functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks.
> The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to
> talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf.
>
> > For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during
> > install , there is NO any way to install them .
>
> because of this:
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html
>
> We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases)
> to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with
> a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude.
>
> DES
> --
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des at des.no
>
Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very
valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD .
All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their
products .
My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , and
used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the
beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of
"expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners .
For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are new
beginners ) .
Thank you very much .
Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:29 -0700
From: Chris Benesch <chris.benesch at gmail.com>
To: freebsd-advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID: <51472F55.5030503 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 3/18/2013 7:40 AM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no> wrote:
>
>> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com> writes:
>>> Install many packages by pkg_add .
>>> When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started :
>>> Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock .
>>> To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it .
>> That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a
>> functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks.
>> The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to
>> talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf.
>>
>>> For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during
>>> install , there is NO any way to install them .
>> because of this:
>>
>> http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html
>>
>> We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases)
>> to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with
>> a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude.
>>
>> DES
>> --
>> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des at des.no
>>
>
> Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very
> valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD .
>
> All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their
> products .
>
>
> My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , and
> used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the
> beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of
> "expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners .
>
>
> For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are new
> beginners ) .
>
> Thank you very much .
>
>
> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy at freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
"freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
I would think that distributions like PC-BSD would address issues like a
recommended package group, which are aimed at consumer desktop users. I
have been out of the Linux world for a while, relying on BSD for my *nix
needs, but from what I remember, and comparing to Free or Open BSD, the
difference is night and day. Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc
on BSD, you need the gcc port and a few support packages, such as
readline, gettext, intl, etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc,
gcc-devel, gcc-headers, kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more
complex. The difference comes from a basic philosophical difference.
BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, the license is quick and easy,
and all of the software comes with all sources and headers included.
Even things that are notoriously closed source like Java.
Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. Maybe it is
to appeal to a wider market of suppliers and users so that more software
can be ported, but we have seen that doesnt really work out that way.
The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually read
it instead of just saying yes.
The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings
appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it
was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors vs.
a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. That and the
packaging. Linux has an "I'll do it all for you, you dont have to make
any decisions" approach to its installer vs. BSDs "Heres what you should
do, but go ahead and change it if you want" approach.
The various offshoots of BSD aimed at desktop users have a good idea,
but personally I think they are overreaching. Myself if I were to
engage in one of those projects, I would number the versions along with
the version of FreeBSD I was supporting (9.1, etc...), nobody wants v
1.1 anymore, rewrite the installer to run in an SVGA driven X
environment (everyone supports VBE now, we dont have to be backwards
compatible to 1991, and if for some reason it doesnt work, there is
always good ol text mode). Make the bootloader play nice with Windoze,
and install a set of recommended packages that has for example a KDE or
Gnome setup with email, office/productivity tools, a base set of
multimedia player (and yes, lets get over the butthurt over MP3 support,
it should do that out of the box) and codecs, and some cool looking
themes and I think we could get good consumer market penetration.
Couple that with a good marketing campaign, some real life testimonials,
and maybe a deal with an OEM like Tigerdirect or Frys to have PCs
shipped with it preinstalled, and you would see it walk over Linux in a
heartbeat. Lets face it, we have the better product, no? Heck I'll put
myself out as the l33t rebel so the maketing can appeal to the script
kiddies too, LULZ.
Anyway, just my $.02
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:55:15 +0100
From: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no>
To: Chris Benesch <chris.benesch at gmail.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID: <864ng866u4.fsf at ds4.des.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Chris Benesch <chris.benesch at gmail.com> writes:
> Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc
> port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl,
> etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers,
> kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference
> comes from a basic philosophical difference.
Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging symbols
etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux
distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default.
However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run
'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum
groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS).
> BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...]
> Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source.
Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be
summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs.
> The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually
> read it instead of just saying yes.
It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to
express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just skip
the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty.
> The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings
> appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it
> was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors
> vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented.
Neither characterization is correct.
(BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of the
FreeBSD project)
DES
--
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des at des.no
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:16 -0700
From: Chris Benesch <chris.benesch at gmail.com>
To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID: <514768F0.2050008 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 3/18/2013 8:55 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
> Chris Benesch <chris.benesch at gmail.com> writes:
>> Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc
>> port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl,
>> etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers,
>> kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference
>> comes from a basic philosophical difference.
> Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging symbols
> etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux
> distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default.
> However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run
> 'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum
> groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS).
>
>> BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...]
>> Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source.
> Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be
> summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs.
>
>> The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually
>> read it instead of just saying yes.
> It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to
> express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just skip
> the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty.
>
>> The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings
>> appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it
>> was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors
>> vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented.
> Neither characterization is correct.
>
> (BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of the
> FreeBSD project)
>
> DES
The last time I did any Linux sys admin stuff was back before yum and
apt-get, so it looks like things have improved. I didnt mean to sound
geographically prejudicial, just my impression since the 90s and early
2000s. Heck I'd love to go see the northern extremes of Europe
someday. Honestly every year I do an upgrade where I get invovled in
all of it for a few weeks, then go quiet while the box silently and
flawlessly runs next to me.
We are on the same team, and I cant thank the whole team enough for
making and continuing to maintain the extraordinary software I myself
and tons of people have come to rely on daily. Politics really isnt my
thing, I write code for a living. Maybe I should just stay there.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:58:15 +0100
From: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander at Leidinger.net>
To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des at des.no>
Cc: advocacy at FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID: <20130318205815.00001cb5 at unknown>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100
Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des at des.no> wrote:
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no> writes:
> > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our
> > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side.
>
> I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k
> packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as
> the ports tree (~24k ports).
Thanks, this is something which helps.
Bye,
Alexander.
--
http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7
http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:29 -0700
From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com>
To: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander at leidinger.net>
Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des at des.no>, advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID:
<CAOgwaMuGXfAVu2UW2pz_s9s7tDErAp9pgbOXiGp_a82A9tppLQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger <
Alexander at leidinger.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100
> Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des at des.no> wrote:
>
> > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no> writes:
> > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our
> > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side.
> >
> > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k
> > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as
> > the ports tree (~24k ports).
>
> Thanks, this is something which helps.
>
> Bye,
> Alexander.
>
> --
>
>
Some package lists :
ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/mageia/distrib/2/x86_64/media/core/release/
ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/core/os/x86_64/
ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/extra/os/x86_64/
ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/centos/6.4/os/x86_64/Packages/
ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/opensuse/distribution/12.3/repo/oss/suse/x86_64/
http://packages.debian.org/stable/
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/stats/?_csrf_token=4dbd43afddf475f0efe
aee2e2223fa77b781c0bb
ftp://ftp.scientificlinux.org/linux/scientific/6.3/x86_64/os/Packages/
It seems that Debian-based distributions do not have an "All" list , but
only categorized lists .
Thank you very much .
Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0700
From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk at gmail.com>
To: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander at leidinger.net>
Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des at des.no>, advocacy at freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in
Linux distros?
Message-ID:
<CAOgwaMtU+L_QDTSugkF=-HJODSaJqhyaqXeE8DFH1p4SLRyAeg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger <
Alexander at leidinger.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100
> Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des at des.no> wrote:
>
> > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des at des.no> writes:
> > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our
> > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side.
> >
> > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k
> > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as
> > the ports tree (~24k ports).
>
> Thanks, this is something which helps.
>
> Bye,
> Alexander.
>
> --
>
>
Some Linux Distribution DVD ( x86_64 ) Package counts :
Fedora 18 : 4165
OpenSuse 12.3 : 4206
Mageia 2 : 4386
CentOS 6.4 DVD1 : 3956
Thank you very much .
Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
------------------------------
Greetings Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
If you want a FreeBSD PC then go for the PCBSD install of FreeBSD is primary
made of the GUI you seems to want to see when installing a system.
FreeBSD is the true sence of a server does not really need to waste
resources and load kde anyway!
It is hard of the hard core FreeBSD (Server) users to have a gui as a
standard option, maybe we should be more GUI sysadmins
I for a fact never use a GUI interface for my Server I install, in the pasti
f I wanted a system with the power of FreeBSD and a GUI I install PCBSD.
I hope that you find FreeBSD as a good companion as I have over the years.
(I just hate it when my clients ask me to migrate to Windows and shut down a
server with mega uptime without problems But I am able to bill lots more on
a server that always need to be rebooted and petting it for hours and hours
to make it work, But I just love vacations and free time more, that FreeBSD
allows me)
Salvatore Albanese
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