From dan at langille.org  Tue Dec  1 02:04:49 2009
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue Dec  1 02:04:57 2009
Subject: BSDCan 2010
Message-ID: <4B1479BE.8020200@langille.org>

Hello folks,

BSDCan 2010 will be held 13-14 May, 2010 in Ottawa at the University of
Ottawa. It will be preceded by two days of tutorials on 11-12 May.

We are now accepting proposals for talks.

The talks should be designed with a very strong technical content bias.
Proposals of a business development or marketing nature are not
appropriate for this venue.

If you are doing something interesting with a BSD operating system,
please submit a proposal. Whether you are developing a very complex
system using BSD as the foundation, or helping others and have a story
to tell about how BSD played a role, we want to hear about your
experience.  People using BSD as a platform for research are also
encouraged to submit a proposal. Possible topics include:

* How we manage a giant installation with respect to handling spam.
* and/or sysadmin.
* and/or networking.

 From the BSDCan website, the Archives section will allow you to review
the wide variety of past BSDCan presentations as further examples.

Both users and developers are encouraged to share their experiences.

The schedule is:

19 Dec 2009 Proposal acceptance begins
19 Jan 2010 Proposal acceptance ends
19 Feb 2010 Confirmation of accepted proposals

See also <http://www.bsdcan.org/2010/papers.php>

Instructions for submitting a proposal to BSDCan 2010 are available
from: <http://www.bsdcan.org/2010/submissions.php>



From rhqrujgt at owdjbzrc.com  Tue Dec  1 18:40:02 2009
From: rhqrujgt at owdjbzrc.com (jhtaoppk)
Date: Tue Dec  1 18:40:24 2009
Subject: advocacy/141064: jhtaoppk
Message-ID: <200912011832.nB1IWOlV086356@www.freebsd.org>


>Number:         141064
>Category:       advocacy
>Synopsis:       jhtaoppk
>Confidential:   no
>Severity:       serious
>Priority:       high
>Responsible:    freebsd-advocacy
>State:          open
>Quarter:        
>Keywords:       
>Date-Required:
>Class:          sw-bug
>Submitter-Id:   current-users
>Arrival-Date:   Tue Dec 01 18:40:02 UTC 2009
>Closed-Date:
>Last-Modified:
>Originator:     jhtaoppk
>Release:        jhtaoppk
>Organization:
jhtaoppk
>Environment:
jhtaoppk
>Description:
 xulijxhn http://lyupqyqq.com wwdpogyd zydgkdig  [URL=http://pggsdisk.com]ywgcvhqw[/URL]  <a href="http://vsibdqfd.com">obbqxgky</a> 
>How-To-Repeat:
jhtaoppk
>Fix:
jhtaoppk

>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:
>Unformatted:
From ehaupt at FreeBSD.org  Tue Dec  1 18:52:57 2009
From: ehaupt at FreeBSD.org (ehaupt@FreeBSD.org)
Date: Tue Dec  1 18:53:03 2009
Subject: advocacy/141064: jhtaoppk
Message-ID: <200912011852.nB1Iqvdx034561@freefall.freebsd.org>

Synopsis: jhtaoppk

State-Changed-From-To: open->closed
State-Changed-By: ehaupt
State-Changed-When: Tue Dec 1 19:52:48 CET 2009
State-Changed-Why: 
SPAM

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=141064
From john.marshall at riverwillow.com.au  Fri Dec  4 05:57:06 2009
From: john.marshall at riverwillow.com.au (John Marshall)
Date: Fri Dec  4 05:57:13 2009
Subject: Future of comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Newsgroup
Message-ID: <20091204054155.GV1388@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>

Gentlemen,

Sorry if this topic is inappropriate for this mailing list - please
point me in the right direction if so, or pass this on to the
appropriate hat.

Readers of the FreeBSD web site and handbook are directed to the the
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce newsgroup.  This newsgroup, created in
1995 and moderated by Jordan Hubbard, is inactive and under threat of
extinction.

The newsgroup folks have started their "Moderator Vacancy Investigation"
(MVI) process for this newsgroup and unless a replacement moderator is
appointed the group will probably be removed.

I suggest that the FreeBSD Project:
  1. Respond to the MVI proposing a new moderator for the newsgroup;
  2. Arrange for the freebsd-announce mailing list to be gated to
     the newsgroup (since that fits the newsgroup's charter).

Extract from the MVI...

  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  CHARTER OF COMP.UNIX.BSD.FREEBSD.ANNOUNCE

          Moderated by Jordan Hubbard <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>

          This newsgroup is for announcements relating to the
          FreeBSD operating system. Things appropriate for the
          .announce group would include announcements of new
          versions of FreeBSD, announcements of major software
          releases (both commercial and freely redistributable)
          for FreeBSD (e.g. new version of X11 for FreeBSD),
          announcements of fixes for major bugs, and the like.
          FAQs relating to FreeBSD should also be cross-posted to
          this group.
          
  HISTORY OF THE GROUP:

  comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce is a moderated newsgroup which
  passed its vote for creation by 338:69 as reported in
  news.announce.newgroups on 22 Feb 1995.
  ----------------------------------------------------------------

I am happy to help if necessary but somebody like the -announce mailing
list moderator is probably more appropriate.  I have never done any
mail-to-news stuff but I could learn.

 - I mailed jkh@ on 30-Nov and got no response.
 - I mailed freebsd-www@  on 01-Dec and got no response.

Thank you.

Regards,

-- 
John Marshall
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From david at catwhisker.org  Fri Dec  4 13:28:10 2009
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Fri Dec  4 13:28:18 2009
Subject: Future of comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <20091204054155.GV1388@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
References: <20091204054155.GV1388@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
Message-ID: <20091204130443.GC1130@albert.catwhisker.org>

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 04:41:56PM +1100, John Marshall wrote:
> ...
> I suggest that the FreeBSD Project:
>   1. Respond to the MVI proposing a new moderator for the newsgroup;
>   2. Arrange for the freebsd-announce mailing list to be gated to
>      the newsgroup (since that fits the newsgroup's charter).

I haven't paid attention to netnews in several years, so my perspective
may well be biased.

And I haven't actually paid attention to the issues involved in running
a news site for most of the last couple of decades.

But my recollection is that *bidirectional* gateways (news <=> mail) are
rather difficult to "get right" and the consequences of misconfiguration
tend toward "cascade failure."

It would, however, make sense from my perspective if a unidirectional
gateway were set up (mail => news -- note direction!), and the newsgroup
were to become merely a reflector of the mailing list.

In that scenario, it would not be possible to "post" directly the
newsgroup -- and I believe that would be appropriate.

> ...
> I am happy to help if necessary but somebody like the -announce mailing
> list moderator is probably more appropriate.  I have never done any
> mail-to-news stuff but I could learn.
> 
>  - I mailed jkh@ on 30-Nov and got no response.
>  - I mailed freebsd-www@  on 01-Dec and got no response.
> ....

Thank you for your efforts so far.

Peace,
david   (postmaster@freebsd.org hat lying about nearby)
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david@catwhisker.org
Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil.

See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.
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From des at des.no  Fri Dec  4 13:46:19 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Fri Dec  4 13:46:30 2009
Subject: Future of comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <20091204130443.GC1130@albert.catwhisker.org> (David Wolfskill's
	message of "Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:04:43 -0800")
References: <20091204054155.GV1388@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
	<20091204130443.GC1130@albert.catwhisker.org>
Message-ID: <86vdgmua1i.fsf@ds4.des.no>

David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org> writes:
> But my recollection is that *bidirectional* gateways (news <=> mail) are
> rather difficult to "get right" and the consequences of misconfiguration
> tend toward "cascade failure."

They're not trivial to get right "from first principles", but they're
very common, and I'm sure someone who's done it before can lend a hand.

> It would, however, make sense from my perspective if a unidirectional
> gateway were set up (mail => news -- note direction!), and the newsgroup
> were to become merely a reflector of the mailing list.

...and that would be sufficient for -announce.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From john.marshall at riverwillow.com.au  Fri Dec  4 22:25:26 2009
From: john.marshall at riverwillow.com.au (John Marshall)
Date: Fri Dec  4 22:25:32 2009
Subject: Future of comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <86vdgmua1i.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <20091204054155.GV1388@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
	<20091204130443.GC1130@albert.catwhisker.org>
	<86vdgmua1i.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <20091204222510.GA20584@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009, 14:46 +0100, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org> writes:
> > It would, however, make sense from my perspective if a unidirectional
> > gateway were set up (mail => news -- note direction!), and the newsgroup
> > were to become merely a reflector of the mailing list.
> 
> ...and that would be sufficient for -announce.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your responses.  Jordan subsequently replied to my email
and CC'd the FreeBSD Core Team.  Core has nominated philip@ to succeed
jhk@ as moderator of the .announce newsgroup.

Philip intends to funnel messages from -announce@ into the .announce
newsgroup.  I think that liaison between philip@ and postmaster@ on the
mechanics of this process would be good.

Thank you for helping (re)establish an official presence for FreeBSD on
USENET.

-- 
John Marshall
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From david at catwhisker.org  Fri Dec  4 22:29:32 2009
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Fri Dec  4 22:29:38 2009
Subject: Future of comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <20091204222510.GA20584@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
References: <20091204054155.GV1388@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
	<20091204130443.GC1130@albert.catwhisker.org>
	<86vdgmua1i.fsf@ds4.des.no>
	<20091204222510.GA20584@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
Message-ID: <20091204222929.GE1130@albert.catwhisker.org>

On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 09:25:11AM +1100, John Marshall wrote:
> ...
> Thank you for your responses.  Jordan subsequently replied to my email
> and CC'd the FreeBSD Core Team.  Core has nominated philip@ to succeed
> jhk@ as moderator of the .announce newsgroup.
> 
> Philip intends to funnel messages from -announce@ into the .announce
> newsgroup.  I think that liaison between philip@ and postmaster@ on the
> mechanics of this process would be good.
> 
> Thank you for helping (re)establish an official presence for FreeBSD on
> USENET.

Glad to help; that's why I'm here.

I'm pretty sure Philip knows how to reach postmaster@.  :-}

Thanks again for taking the initiative to address the matter.

Peace,
david   (postmaster@freebsd.org hat lying about somewhere near here)
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david@catwhisker.org
Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil.

See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.
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From scrappy at hub.org  Sat Dec  5 19:28:26 2009
From: scrappy at hub.org (Marc G. Fournier)
Date: Sat Dec  5 19:28:32 2009
Subject: Future of comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <20091204130443.GC1130@albert.catwhisker.org>
References: <20091204054155.GV1388@rwpc12.mby.riverwillow.net.au>
	<20091204130443.GC1130@albert.catwhisker.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0912051508570.12404@hub.org>

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, David Wolfskill wrote:

> It would, however, make sense from my perspective if a unidirectional 
> gateway were set up (mail => news -- note direction!), and the newsgroup 
> were to become merely a reflector of the mailing list.

In case it is needed, I do run a news server, and would be most willing to 
put a uni-directional posting filter onto that mailing list, so that mail 
gets there ... just let me know if this is what is decided / needed ...

----
Marc G. Fournier                        Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A.
scrappy@hub.org                                     http://www.hub.org

Yahoo:yscrappy    Skype: hub.org    ICQ:7615664    MSN:scrappy@hub.org
From rodrigo at bebik.net  Mon Dec  7 13:07:06 2009
From: rodrigo at bebik.net (Rodrigo OSORIO (ros))
Date: Mon Dec  7 13:07:13 2009
Subject: FreeNAS moves from FreeBSD to Debian Linux ?
Message-ID: <20091207130657.GA90837@hodja.bebik.net>


Bad news,

According with Slashdot[1] the freeNAS project plans to disconinue the FreeBSD based system
and moves to Debian Linux. A concurent project called coreNAS was started by the FreeNAS main 
developer Volker Theile.

- rodrigo

[1] http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/12/06/152205
From rodrigo at bebik.net  Mon Dec  7 15:16:09 2009
From: rodrigo at bebik.net (Rodrigo OSORIO (ros))
Date: Mon Dec  7 15:16:14 2009
Subject: FreeNAS moves from FreeBSD to Debian Linux ?
In-Reply-To: <20091207130657.GA90837@hodja.bebik.net>
References: <20091207130657.GA90837@hodja.bebik.net>
Message-ID: <20091207151601.GC90837@hodja.bebik.net>

On 07/12/09 14:06 +0100, Rodrigo OSORIO (ros) wrote:
> 
> Bad news,
> 
> According with Slashdot[1] the freeNAS project plans to disconinue the FreeBSD based system
> and moves to Debian Linux. A concurent project called coreNAS was started by the FreeNAS main 
> developer Volker Theile.
> 
> - rodrigo
> 
> [1] http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/12/06/152205
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"

Hi,

Looks like people on Slashdot post a little bit faster, news comming from the FreeBSD
world are more pleasant.
http://www.freebsdnews.net/2009/12/05/freenas-ready-step/

regards,

Rodrigo 
From leslie at eskk.nu  Fri Dec 11 08:50:05 2009
From: leslie at eskk.nu (Leslie Jensen)
Date: Fri Dec 11 08:50:10 2009
Subject: Not able to reach the freebsdfoundation
Message-ID: <4B220364.10005@eskk.nu>



I'm trying to contact the email address displayed on the 
freebsdfoundation's homepage but I get the error below:


   The mail system

<board@freebsdfoundation.org>: host foundation.freebsd.org[69.147.83.42] 
said:
     452 4.3.1 Insufficient system storage (in reply to MAIL FROM command)


Can anyone on this list help me?



PS: it's about the java download page.
-----------------------------------------
On the page

http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/downloads/java.shtml

There's no links for packages or tarballs for FreeBSD version 8.0.
---------------------------------------------


Thanks

/Leslie
From tonyt at logyst.com  Fri Dec 11 10:59:03 2009
From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore)
Date: Fri Dec 11 10:59:10 2009
Subject: Not able to reach the freebsdfoundation
In-Reply-To: <4B220364.10005@eskk.nu>
References: <4B220364.10005@eskk.nu>
Message-ID: <22166b750912110259y2f2c3f63p966a48edb539f787@mail.gmail.com>

2009/12/11 Leslie Jensen <leslie@eskk.nu>:
>
>
> I'm trying to contact the email address displayed on the freebsdfoundation's
> homepage but I get the error below:
>
>
> ?The mail system
>
> <board@freebsdfoundation.org>: host foundation.freebsd.org[69.147.83.42]
> said:
> ? ?452 4.3.1 Insufficient system storage (in reply to MAIL FROM command)
>
>
> Can anyone on this list help me?
>
>
>
> PS: it's about the java download page.
> -----------------------------------------
> On the page
>
> http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/downloads/java.shtml
>
> There's no links for packages or tarballs for FreeBSD version 8.0.

Given 8.0 was released only two weeks ago, you may find it takes a
little while for the testing and certification process.

Tony
From jan.husar at skosi.org  Tue Dec 15 07:33:50 2009
From: jan.husar at skosi.org (Jan Husar)
Date: Tue Dec 15 07:33:57 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
Message-ID: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011

-- 
-----------------------------------
|  Jan Husar
|
| doing what matters
| http://tinyurl.com/ya4xlqe

Earthcause - in the cause of the Planet
#1 Mission to Kosovo (2009, 2010)
#2 Mission to Cambodia (2010)
#3 Mission to Galapagos (planning)
From peer.schaefer at hamburg.de  Tue Dec 15 10:49:20 2009
From: peer.schaefer at hamburg.de (Peer Schaefer)
Date: Tue Dec 15 10:49:26 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1260900906.3947.11.camel@earth.sol>

I disagree (partially).

1st: PCBSD has a graphical installer. But I don't think a graphical
installer is needed. An installer with a curses-like menu-driven
interface is sufficient for most techy users (and face it: aunt Jamie is
not the target audience for *BSD). But I admit that some menus of the
*BSD installers are a little bit cryptic. The installer also lacks a
good help facility. Perhaps it needs a little polishing.

2nd: The lack of a live CD is a real problem. A live CD is crucial for
testing hardware compatibility and for data rescue (accessing a UFS
formatted BSD-slice from a Linux live CD should be theoretically
possible, but I never got it working).

3rd: *BSD is a great server OS. It tried to switch my desktop machine
too, but in the end two problems blocked that: (a) Automounting USB
media never worked really good. (b) I have large amount of data on
ext2/ext3 formatted media. I can't convert them online to UFS, and I
never got the ext2/ext3 fs-driver for *BSD to correct work.

Conclusion: A graphical installer is a nice add-on, but no must-have. An
curses-like interface is ok. But perhaps the installer needs some
polishing. The lack of a live CD is a real problem. And for desktop
usage *BSD needs working automounting and a good ext2/ext3 driver.

Best wishes,
--Peer


Am Dienstag, den 15.12.2009, 16:33 +0100 schrieb Jan Husar:
> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
> 

From hhw at pce-net.com  Tue Dec 15 15:30:22 2009
From: hhw at pce-net.com (Han Hwei Woo)
Date: Tue Dec 15 15:30:30 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <1260900906.3947.11.camel@earth.sol>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1260900906.3947.11.camel@earth.sol>
Message-ID: <4B2810FA.2050100@pce-net.com>

1. Graphical installers don't work over serial consoles.

2. There is a live CD.
ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/8.0/8.0-RELEASE-i386-livefs.iso
. Use FreeSBIE if you need a live cd with a graphical environment.

3. mount -t ext2fs


Peer Schaefer wrote:
> I disagree (partially).
>
> 1st: PCBSD has a graphical installer. But I don't think a graphical
> installer is needed. An installer with a curses-like menu-driven
> interface is sufficient for most techy users (and face it: aunt Jamie is
> not the target audience for *BSD). But I admit that some menus of the
> *BSD installers are a little bit cryptic. The installer also lacks a
> good help facility. Perhaps it needs a little polishing.
>
> 2nd: The lack of a live CD is a real problem. A live CD is crucial for
> testing hardware compatibility and for data rescue (accessing a UFS
> formatted BSD-slice from a Linux live CD should be theoretically
> possible, but I never got it working).
>
> 3rd: *BSD is a great server OS. It tried to switch my desktop machine
> too, but in the end two problems blocked that: (a) Automounting USB
> media never worked really good. (b) I have large amount of data on
> ext2/ext3 formatted media. I can't convert them online to UFS, and I
> never got the ext2/ext3 fs-driver for *BSD to correct work.
>
> Conclusion: A graphical installer is a nice add-on, but no must-have. An
> curses-like interface is ok. But perhaps the installer needs some
> polishing. The lack of a live CD is a real problem. And for desktop
> usage *BSD needs working automounting and a good ext2/ext3 driver.
>
> Best wishes,
> --Peer
>
>
> Am Dienstag, den 15.12.2009, 16:33 +0100 schrieb Jan Husar:
>   
>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>   

From des at des.no  Wed Dec 16 05:04:23 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Wed Dec 16 05:04:29 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <4B2810FA.2050100@pce-net.com> (Han Hwei Woo's message of "Tue,
	15 Dec 2009 14:43:06 -0800")
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1260900906.3947.11.camel@earth.sol> <4B2810FA.2050100@pce-net.com>
Message-ID: <864onrkr3e.fsf@ds4.des.no>

Han Hwei Woo <hhw@pce-net.com> writes:
> 2. There is a live CD.
> ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/8.0/8.0-RELEASE-i386-livefs.iso

That's a misnomer.  For all practical purposes, there is no difference
between livefs and disc1 except for the lack of packages.  When people
download something called a "live CD", they expect a CD that will boot a
fully functional desktop, with an option to run the installer.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From mike.bybee at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 14:34:38 2009
From: mike.bybee at gmail.com (Mike Bybee)
Date: Thu Dec 17 14:34:44 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav)
Message-ID: <75813f040912170605u7b69e0e7i5e1512814717aa21@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:00 AM,  <freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org> wrote:

> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:04:21 +0100
> From: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no>
> Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love
> To: Han Hwei Woo <hhw@pce-net.com>
> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
> Message-ID: <864onrkr3e.fsf@ds4.des.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Han Hwei Woo <hhw@pce-net.com> writes:
>> 2. There is a live CD.
>> ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/8.0/8.0-RELEASE-i386-livefs.iso
>
> That's a misnomer. ?For all practical purposes, there is no difference
> between livefs and disc1 except for the lack of packages. ?When people
> download something called a "live CD", they expect a CD that will boot a
> fully functional desktop, with an option to run the installer.
>
> DES
> --
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
>
>

The PC-BSD 8.0 Alpha has a full standard LiveCD mode. It boots to a
totally normal fully functional desktop, just the same as Ubuntu,
Fedora, etc.

-- 
Thanks,
Mike Bybee
From sagara at tomahawk.com.sg  Thu Dec 17 16:00:59 2009
From: sagara at tomahawk.com.sg (Sagara Wijetunga)
Date: Thu Dec 17 16:01:10 2009
Subject: Tomahawk Desktop 2.0 Beta1 Released
Message-ID: <4B2A4EFD.1000504@tomahawk.com.sg>

Hi FreeBSD community

We are happy to announce the release of Tomahawk Desktop 2.0 Beta1. The 
Tomahawk Desktop is based on FreeBSD 7.2 sources.

The objective of the release is to collaborate with the community to 
iron out remaining technical issues.
Example, we could not get the KDE (ver. 4.3.3) up. When try to run the 
KDE, the greeter crashes.
 
Tomahawk Desktop download: http://www.tomahawkcomputers.com/download.html

Kind regards
Sagara Wijetunga

From salvatore at oems.ch  Fri Dec 18 18:16:40 2009
From: salvatore at oems.ch (Salvatore Albanese)
Date: Fri Dec 18 18:16:47 2009
Subject: Fw: Call for papers OpenExpo 2010 Switzerland
Message-ID: <F77A04AC86F8420785A589CDDBA43012@OEMSPC01>

Greetings all.

Who wants to help me with a FreeBSD Foundation fund drive in Switzerland at 
the following two OpenExpo dates for 2010.

Here is the announcement that comes from the largest Open Source Software 
show in Switzerland, if you want to come and make your presents and show 
your support for Free Open Source Software come!

Please contact me if you have time or resources to help share with the Open 
Source community in Switzerland your FreeBSD experiences, and help with next 
years FreeBSD activities and fund raising for the FreeBSD Foundation.


Salvatore Albanese
OEMS Sagl
CP 24
6576 Gerra (Gambarogno) TI
Switzerland

Tel  +41 91 859 0730
E-mail info[that snail sign]oems[dot]ch
Web www.oems.ch
Skype name: oems_sagl

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 4:40 PM
Subject: Anmeldung OpenExpo 2010 und Ank?ndigung Open Source Forum 2010

Sehr geehrter Herr Albanese

OpenExpo, die gr?sste Schweizer Open Source Messe, ?ffnet am Mittwoch und
Donnerstag, 24. und 25. M?rz 2010 in der BEA expo in Bern bereits zum
achten Mal ihre T?ren!

Der erste Tag, Mittwoch 24. M?rz 2010, steht im Zentrum der Digitalen
Nachhaltigkeit. Mit vielseitigen Referaten aus der Community, der
?ffentlichen Verwaltung und der Politik wird dieses neuartige Konzept im
Umgang mit digitalen G?tern im Detail dargestellt. H?hepunkt wird das
Referat von Nationalr?tin Edith Graf-Litscher und Nationalrat Christian
Wasserfallen sein, die als Ko-Pr?sidenten die Arbeit der Parlamentarischen
Gruppe Digitale Nachhaltigkeit vorstellen werden.

Der zweite Tag, Donnerstag 25. M?rz 2010 fokussiert auf
Informatik-Bed?rfnisse von KMUs. Firmenaussteller der OpenExpo
pr?sentieren unterschiedliche Open Source Software L?sungen, von CMS ?ber
DMS bis zu CRM und ERP. H?hepunkt des zweiten Tages wird die von KMU
LIFE-Redaktor Georg Lutz moderierte Podiumsdiskussion mit Vertretern der
Open Source und Closed Source Szene sein.


ANMELDUNG ALS SPONSOR, FIRMENAUSSTELLER, REFERENT UND PROJEKT
Parallel zur Konferenz werden wiederum Open Source Dienstleister und Open
Source Communities ihre Angebote und Produkte im Rahmen der
Messeausstellung pr?sentieren. Ab sofort sind alle Anmeldeformulare f?r
Firmenaussteller, Konferenzbeitr?ge und Open Source Projekte ge?ffnet. Der
Anmeldeschluss ist der *22. Januar 2010*.


SPONSORING
Die Gold und Silver Packages des OpenExpo Sponsorings sowie drei Feature
Sponsorings erlauben unterschiedliche M?glichkeiten, als zentraler Partner
der OpenExpo 2010 wahrgenommen zu werden.
http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/sponsoring/


ANMELDUNG FIRMENSTAND
Der OpenExpo Firmenstand ist die optimale Gelegenheit f?r Unternehmen, ihre
Open Source Produkte und Dienstleistungen in der Schweiz bekannt zu
machen.
http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/anmeldung-firma/


ANMELDUNG REFERAT
Die Referate der OpenExpo 2010 sind in die zwei Fokus-Themen Digitale
Nachhaltigkeit und KMUs geteilt.
http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/anmeldung-referat/


ANMELDUNG OPEN SOURCE PROJEKT
Ein Open Source Projekt kann kostenlos von Entwicklern der Software, aber
auch von Firmenvertretern, die Dienstleistungen dazu erbringen,
pr?sentiert werden.
http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/anmeldung-projekt/


OPEN SOURCE FORUM 2010
Da die OpenExpo Messeausstellung k?nftig nur noch einmal im Jahr jeweils im
Fr?hling in Bern durchgef?hrt wird, findet am *Mittwoch, 1. September
2010* erstmals das Open Source Forum im Z?rcher Kongresshaus statt. Mit
klarer Positionierung als Executive Management- und Fachkongress wird
damit eine neue High End Konferenz-Veranstaltung rund um den
praxisorientierten Einsatz von Open Source Technologien geschaffen.
Weitere Informationen sowie M?glichkeiten zur Mitwirkung sind im Partner
Package des Open Source Forums enthalten, das hier als PDF-Download
verf?gbar ist:
http://www.openexpo.ch/open-source-forum-2010/


R?CKBLICK OPENEXPO 2009 WINTERTHUR
Trotz Wirtschaftskrise haben im vergangenen Dezember mehrere tausend
Besucher die OpenExpo zusammen mit topsoft besucht. Auf der
OpenExpo-Website ist ein kurzer R?ckblick mit vielen Fotos und den
Video-Aufnahmen der Referate publiziert:
http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2009-winterthur



Meine Newsletter-Einstellungen bearbeiten:
http://www.openexpo.ch/?id=250&cmd=edit&aC=b3d9d417&rU=47
Newsletter abbestellen:
http://www.openexpo.ch/?id=250&cmd=delete&aC=b3d9d417&rU=47

--
OpenExpo - Gr?sste Schweizer Open Source Software Messe und Konferenz
www.openexpo.ch | contact@openexpo.ch
Veranstaltet durch topsoft Messe f?r Business Software | www.topsoft.ch
Programmkomitee verantwortet durch den Verein /ch/open | www.ch-open.ch 

From ds at praxis123.de  Fri Dec 18 18:22:30 2009
From: ds at praxis123.de (Daniel Seuffert)
Date: Fri Dec 18 18:57:45 2009
Subject: Fw: Call for papers OpenExpo 2010 Switzerland
In-Reply-To: <F77A04AC86F8420785A589CDDBA43012@OEMSPC01>
References: <F77A04AC86F8420785A589CDDBA43012@OEMSPC01>
Message-ID: <4B2BC865.1030404@praxis123.de>

Hi Salvatore,

unfortunately I'm unable to attend personally but I will
provide everything (flyxers, DVDs, USB-sticks etc.) you may
need.

Best, Daniel


> Greetings all.
> 
> Who wants to help me with a FreeBSD Foundation fund drive in Switzerland
> at the following two OpenExpo dates for 2010.
> 
> Here is the announcement that comes from the largest Open Source
> Software show in Switzerland, if you want to come and make your presents
> and show your support for Free Open Source Software come!
> 
> Please contact me if you have time or resources to help share with the
> Open Source community in Switzerland your FreeBSD experiences, and help
> with next years FreeBSD activities and fund raising for the FreeBSD
> Foundation.
> 
> 
> Salvatore Albanese
> OEMS Sagl
> CP 24
> 6576 Gerra (Gambarogno) TI
> Switzerland
> 
> Tel  +41 91 859 0730
> E-mail info[that snail sign]oems[dot]ch
> Web www.oems.ch
> Skype name: oems_sagl
> 
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 4:40 PM
> Subject: Anmeldung OpenExpo 2010 und Ank?ndigung Open Source Forum 2010
> 
> Sehr geehrter Herr Albanese
> 
> OpenExpo, die gr?sste Schweizer Open Source Messe, ?ffnet am Mittwoch und
> Donnerstag, 24. und 25. M?rz 2010 in der BEA expo in Bern bereits zum
> achten Mal ihre T?ren!
> 
> Der erste Tag, Mittwoch 24. M?rz 2010, steht im Zentrum der Digitalen
> Nachhaltigkeit. Mit vielseitigen Referaten aus der Community, der
> ?ffentlichen Verwaltung und der Politik wird dieses neuartige Konzept im
> Umgang mit digitalen G?tern im Detail dargestellt. H?hepunkt wird das
> Referat von Nationalr?tin Edith Graf-Litscher und Nationalrat Christian
> Wasserfallen sein, die als Ko-Pr?sidenten die Arbeit der Parlamentarischen
> Gruppe Digitale Nachhaltigkeit vorstellen werden.
> 
> Der zweite Tag, Donnerstag 25. M?rz 2010 fokussiert auf
> Informatik-Bed?rfnisse von KMUs. Firmenaussteller der OpenExpo
> pr?sentieren unterschiedliche Open Source Software L?sungen, von CMS ?ber
> DMS bis zu CRM und ERP. H?hepunkt des zweiten Tages wird die von KMU
> LIFE-Redaktor Georg Lutz moderierte Podiumsdiskussion mit Vertretern der
> Open Source und Closed Source Szene sein.
> 
> 
> ANMELDUNG ALS SPONSOR, FIRMENAUSSTELLER, REFERENT UND PROJEKT
> Parallel zur Konferenz werden wiederum Open Source Dienstleister und Open
> Source Communities ihre Angebote und Produkte im Rahmen der
> Messeausstellung pr?sentieren. Ab sofort sind alle Anmeldeformulare f?r
> Firmenaussteller, Konferenzbeitr?ge und Open Source Projekte ge?ffnet. Der
> Anmeldeschluss ist der *22. Januar 2010*.
> 
> 
> SPONSORING
> Die Gold und Silver Packages des OpenExpo Sponsorings sowie drei Feature
> Sponsorings erlauben unterschiedliche M?glichkeiten, als zentraler Partner
> der OpenExpo 2010 wahrgenommen zu werden.
> http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/sponsoring/
> 
> 
> ANMELDUNG FIRMENSTAND
> Der OpenExpo Firmenstand ist die optimale Gelegenheit f?r Unternehmen, ihre
> Open Source Produkte und Dienstleistungen in der Schweiz bekannt zu
> machen.
> http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/anmeldung-firma/
> 
> 
> ANMELDUNG REFERAT
> Die Referate der OpenExpo 2010 sind in die zwei Fokus-Themen Digitale
> Nachhaltigkeit und KMUs geteilt.
> http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/anmeldung-referat/
> 
> 
> ANMELDUNG OPEN SOURCE PROJEKT
> Ein Open Source Projekt kann kostenlos von Entwicklern der Software, aber
> auch von Firmenvertretern, die Dienstleistungen dazu erbringen,
> pr?sentiert werden.
> http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2010-bern/anmeldung-projekt/
> 
> 
> OPEN SOURCE FORUM 2010
> Da die OpenExpo Messeausstellung k?nftig nur noch einmal im Jahr jeweils im
> Fr?hling in Bern durchgef?hrt wird, findet am *Mittwoch, 1. September
> 2010* erstmals das Open Source Forum im Z?rcher Kongresshaus statt. Mit
> klarer Positionierung als Executive Management- und Fachkongress wird
> damit eine neue High End Konferenz-Veranstaltung rund um den
> praxisorientierten Einsatz von Open Source Technologien geschaffen.
> Weitere Informationen sowie M?glichkeiten zur Mitwirkung sind im Partner
> Package des Open Source Forums enthalten, das hier als PDF-Download
> verf?gbar ist:
> http://www.openexpo.ch/open-source-forum-2010/
> 
> 
> R?CKBLICK OPENEXPO 2009 WINTERTHUR
> Trotz Wirtschaftskrise haben im vergangenen Dezember mehrere tausend
> Besucher die OpenExpo zusammen mit topsoft besucht. Auf der
> OpenExpo-Website ist ein kurzer R?ckblick mit vielen Fotos und den
> Video-Aufnahmen der Referate publiziert:
> http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2009-winterthur
> 
> 
> 
> Meine Newsletter-Einstellungen bearbeiten:
> http://www.openexpo.ch/?id=250&cmd=edit&aC=b3d9d417&rU=47
> Newsletter abbestellen:
> http://www.openexpo.ch/?id=250&cmd=delete&aC=b3d9d417&rU=47
> 
> -- 
> OpenExpo - Gr?sste Schweizer Open Source Software Messe und Konferenz
> www.openexpo.ch | contact@openexpo.ch
> Veranstaltet durch topsoft Messe f?r Business Software | www.topsoft.ch
> Programmkomitee verantwortet durch den Verein /ch/open | www.ch-open.ch
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"

From dcs at newsguy.com  Sat Dec 19 15:47:04 2009
From: dcs at newsguy.com (Daniel Sobral)
Date: Sat Dec 19 15:47:11 2009
Subject: Free advertising at Stack Overflow
Message-ID: <4B2CE8A7.60601@newsguy.com>

Should the FreeBSD community endeavor to get some free advertising for 
Scala at Stack Overflow, as described 
athttp://blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/12/free-vote-based-advertising-for-open-source-projects/ 
<http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/12/free-vote-based-advertising-for-open-source-projects/>? 


The required work consists of little more than producing a 220x220 Scala 
advertising image and posting it at the proper (time-wise) thread tagged 
open-source-advertising on meta.stackoverflow.com 
<http://meta.stackoverflow.com>(http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/open-source-advertising 
<http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/open-source-advertising>). 
The exact details can be found in that post 
(presently, http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/31913/open-source-advertising-sidebar-1h-2010 
<http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/31913/open-source-advertising-sidebar-1h-2010>).

Note that this is not intended as an advertisement of the product, but 
as an advertisement of the project. The intent is getting people to 
contribute, not to get people to use.

--
Daniel C. Sobral
dcs@freebsd.org former committer
From john_re at fastmail.us  Sun Dec 20 11:05:00 2009
From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re)
Date: Sun Dec 20 11:05:06 2009
Subject: Dec 20 Global BSD & All Free SW HW Culture meeting - BerkeleyTIP
Message-ID: <1261307098.15605.1350992015@webmail.messagingengine.com>

A great December Solstice to you & yours. :)

JOIN the Global All Free SW, HW, Culture meeting via VOIP
Dec 20 Sunday, 12N-3PM (Pacific = UTC-8) = 3P-6P Eastern = 8P-11P UTC
[Jan 2009 meetings: 2nd, 17th - mark your calendar]
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/schedule


==  WATCH some VIDEOS:
Mark Shuttleworth Interview - 10.04 Lucid Larynx
Learning from Code History , Andreas Zeller
Why does my program fail? Your version history might have the answer.
Audio Hardware Enablement Session,  UbuntuDevelopersSummit in Dallas
Distributed Development,  UDS in Dallas
Splunk,  Jeremy Thurgood  CLUG
Upstart,  Stefano Rivera  CLUG
Interfacing with the real world,  Mark Ter Morshuizen, Marc Welz CLUG
Accelerating Graphics;  Camp KDE 2009
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/talk-videos


== Join the MAILING LIST & tell us which videos you will watch & why:
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal


==  JOIN the meeting via IRC & VOIP:
Come discuss any & everything, & work on your individual or group
projects.

HOT TOPICS: Ub or KUb 9.10?, Ubuntu 10.04 plans, Android, Python3000 in
2010?

Start on the #berkeleytip irc.freenode.net channel, & we'll help you get
your VOIP system up & working.  For VOIP SW, & connection info, see:
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/remote-attendance

Berkeley meeting LOCATION:  Watch the website & mail list for latest
details,  perhaps at the Berkeley Public Library, or a cafe, due to Free
Speech Cafe closed for winter break.
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/


==  OPPORTUNITIES to VOLUNTEER or learn new JOB SKILLS for 2010:
Help set up our: Mailing list, FreeSwitch VOIP server, website
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/opportunities
Inquire & discuss at the meeting.


==  For Forwarding - You are invited to forward this announcement
wherever it would be appreciated.
From gnqcryxd at yqqwybcf.com  Tue Dec 22 08:40:09 2009
From: gnqcryxd at yqqwybcf.com (ktnugdbj)
Date: Tue Dec 22 08:40:28 2009
Subject: advocacy/141866: ktnugdbj
Message-ID: <200912220833.nBM8XSZv019042@www.freebsd.org>


>Number:         141866
>Category:       advocacy
>Synopsis:       ktnugdbj
>Confidential:   no
>Severity:       serious
>Priority:       high
>Responsible:    freebsd-advocacy
>State:          open
>Quarter:        
>Keywords:       
>Date-Required:
>Class:          sw-bug
>Submitter-Id:   current-users
>Arrival-Date:   Tue Dec 22 08:40:09 UTC 2009
>Closed-Date:
>Last-Modified:
>Originator:     ktnugdbj
>Release:        ktnugdbj
>Organization:
ktnugdbj
>Environment:
ktnugdbj
>Description:
 <a href="http://ioospheb.com">nezxugbw</a>  [URL=http://lrbppsoc.com]bgfvcrnb[/URL]  rqiobmtq http://szdqoigz.com lxlhtdwe zmqicizv 
>How-To-Repeat:
ktnugdbj
>Fix:
ktnugdbj

>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:
>Unformatted:
From spbdbtfs at vtgcfysj.com  Tue Dec 22 08:50:03 2009
From: spbdbtfs at vtgcfysj.com (yeeojadi)
Date: Tue Dec 22 08:50:09 2009
Subject: advocacy/141877: yeeojadi
Message-ID: <200912220840.nBM8eTiD030212@www.freebsd.org>


>Number:         141877
>Category:       advocacy
>Synopsis:       yeeojadi
>Confidential:   no
>Severity:       critical
>Priority:       low
>Responsible:    freebsd-advocacy
>State:          open
>Quarter:        
>Keywords:       
>Date-Required:
>Class:          doc-bug
>Submitter-Id:   current-users
>Arrival-Date:   Tue Dec 22 08:50:02 UTC 2009
>Closed-Date:
>Last-Modified:
>Originator:     yeeojadi
>Release:        yeeojadi
>Organization:
yeeojadi
>Environment:
yeeojadi
>Description:
wyekkuim http://obbvjglm.com yiaufzmu ugerhfmh
>How-To-Repeat:
yeeojadi
>Fix:
yeeojadi

>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:
>Unformatted:
From brucec at FreeBSD.org  Tue Dec 22 09:14:46 2009
From: brucec at FreeBSD.org (brucec@FreeBSD.org)
Date: Tue Dec 22 09:14:52 2009
Subject: junk /141866: ktnugdbj
Message-ID: <200912220914.nBM9EkCu062000@freefall.freebsd.org>

Synopsis: ktnugdbj

State-Changed-From-To: open->closed 
State-Changed-By: brucec
State-Changed-When: Tue Dec 22 09:14:26 UTC 2009
State-Changed-Why: 
spam

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=141866
From brucec at FreeBSD.org  Tue Dec 22 09:15:12 2009
From: brucec at FreeBSD.org (brucec@FreeBSD.org)
Date: Tue Dec 22 09:15:18 2009
Subject: junk /141877: yeeojadi
Message-ID: <200912220915.nBM9FBlF062049@freefall.freebsd.org>

Synopsis: yeeojadi

State-Changed-From-To: open->closed 
State-Changed-By: brucec
State-Changed-When: Tue Dec 22 09:14:51 UTC 2009
State-Changed-Why: 
spam

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=141877
From karel at lovetemple.net  Wed Dec 23 01:12:27 2009
From: karel at lovetemple.net (Karel Miklav)
Date: Wed Dec 23 01:12:37 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B314F19.6080802@lovetemple.net>

Jan Husar wrote:
> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011

Why a box is not an apple and how would we make a box look like an 
apple? That is a question! Because if we could turn all the boxes into 
apples, oh boy, how many apples would we have! Where all those apples 
would be stored in the world without boxes nobody knows, but let's just 
concentrate on doing one step at the time.

Seriously, power consumers get enough confirmation from the salespeople 
and popular media, they should not be covered here. Or is there a need 
for positioning work regarding our project?

--

Regards,
Karel Miklav
From corky1951 at comcast.net  Wed Dec 23 03:24:14 2009
From: corky1951 at comcast.net (Charlie Kester)
Date: Wed Dec 23 03:24:21 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>

On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011

Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
article.

As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
graphical installer?
From shanecalimlim at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 08:18:27 2009
From: shanecalimlim at gmail.com (Shane Calimlim)
Date: Wed Dec 23 08:18:33 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com>

+1 to a better installer, graphical or not.

I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only
because I've done it so many times.  The first few attempts were extremely
frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense --
especially if something goes wrong.  Please keep that in mind, everyone on
this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you
remember the first time(s) you used it?  Know a fairly seasoned linux user
that has never used FreeBSD?  Sit them down at a machine and watch them try
to install it.

First impressions are important!  I won't go into the gui vs non-gui
installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is
definitely a good thing.

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Charlie Kester <corky1951@comcast.net>wrote:

> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>
>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>>
>
> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
> article.
>
> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
> graphical installer?
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org
> "
>
From m.seaman at infracaninophile.co.uk  Wed Dec 23 08:38:30 2009
From: m.seaman at infracaninophile.co.uk (Matthew Seaman)
Date: Wed Dec 23 08:38:36 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>

Charlie Kester wrote:
> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
> 
> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
> article.
> 
> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
> graphical installer?

Heh.  It's almost worth implementing a graphical installer just to shut
up the constant moaning.  While I agree that it is a very basic error to
judge by form and appearance rather than by substance, unfortunately much
of the rest of the world appears not to agree.

As a project, by not having this sort of layer of gloss on what is likely
to be the very first thing a new user sees we run the risk of putting off
complete neophytes who have no other basis on which to judge the OS, and
who could otherwise develop into the next generation of capable users.  

At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't have
sufficient skill to do.  Or sufficient time.)  I'd design an installer as a
CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do the 
installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to allow
users to create the installation script interactively.  I think that would
fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a
*shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended
installs over serial lines.

Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a
complete failure.

	Cheers,

	Matthew

-- 
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.                   7 Priory Courtyard
                                                  Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey     Ramsgate
                                                  Kent, CT11 9PW

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From perrin at apotheon.com  Wed Dec 23 10:39:52 2009
From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin)
Date: Wed Dec 23 10:39:58 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:33:49PM +0100, Jan Husar wrote:
> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011

By the way . . . as another writer at TechRepublic, I've written another
article that responds substantially to what Jack Wallen said about the
various BSD Unix systems in his article, "Why the BSDs get no love".  My
article has been submitted to the editor, and I believe it is slated to
be auto-published next week while most (if not all) of the TR staff is
off for the holidays under the title "Why security gets no love".

While the actual core topic of the article is the deplorable lack of
proper attention to security matters in the IT world in general, it uses
Wallen's article as a springboard, and the beginning of it is largely a
direct response to the "Why the BSDs get no love" article.  I thought I'd
bring it up here, since there has been some concern showed on this list
about the content of Wallen's article.

I'd wait until my article gets published to mention it here, so I could
provide a direct URL to it at the time, but I might be electronically
incommunicado at the time (Christmas vacation and all), so I figured I'd
give anyone interested a heads-up that it's coming.

I welcome any (hopefully constructive) feedback from the FreeBSD Advocacy
list's members and the larger FreeBSD community, of course.

For the record, this email was composed on my ThinkPad running FreeBSD
7.2.  I mention FreeBSD from time to time in my security articles, and
have been particularly focusing on some matters related to basic
filesystem security this month in my TechRepublic articles.  While I will
probably have to lay off the FreeBSD stuff for a little while to keep the
editors happy, I wouldn't mind suggestions from FreeBSD advocates for
what other FreeBSD-related topics might make for good security article
content in the future -- especially if they tie in strongly with more
"mainstream" security topics.

-- 
Chad Perrin  [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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From peer.schaefer at hamburg.de  Wed Dec 23 12:29:49 2009
From: peer.schaefer at hamburg.de (Peer Schaefer)
Date: Wed Dec 23 12:29:56 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
	<16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1261571390.3837.5.camel@earth.sol>

Exactly. That's what I meant when I said the installer is good but needs
a little "polishing".

--Peer


Am Dienstag, den 22.12.2009, 23:55 -0800 schrieb Shane Calimlim:
> +1 to a better installer, graphical or not.
> 
> I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only
> because I've done it so many times.  The first few attempts were extremely
> frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense --
> especially if something goes wrong.  Please keep that in mind, everyone on
> this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you
> remember the first time(s) you used it?  Know a fairly seasoned linux user
> that has never used FreeBSD?  Sit them down at a machine and watch them try
> to install it.
> 
> First impressions are important!  I won't go into the gui vs non-gui
> installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is
> definitely a good thing.
> 
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Charlie Kester <corky1951@comcast.net>wrote:
> 
> > On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
> >
> >> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
> >>
> >
> > Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
> > article.
> >
> > As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
> > more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
> > graphical installer?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org
> > "
> >
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"

From peer.schaefer at hamburg.de  Wed Dec 23 12:34:13 2009
From: peer.schaefer at hamburg.de (Peer Schaefer)
Date: Wed Dec 23 12:34:23 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
	<4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1261571654.3837.11.camel@earth.sol>

On wednesday, the 23.12.2009, 08:38 +0000 Matthew Seaman wrote:
> At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't have
> sufficient skill to do.  Or sufficient time.)  I'd design an installer as a
> CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do the 
> installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to allow
> users to create the installation script interactively.  I think that would
> fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a
> *shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended
> installs over serial lines.
> 
> Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a
> complete failure.
> 
> 	Cheers,
> 
> 	Matthew
> 

BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic
backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or
a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but
surely difficult to implement).


From db at db.net  Wed Dec 23 13:37:16 2009
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Wed Dec 23 13:37:23 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20091223131733.GA34302@night.db.net>

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 07:24:10PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
> >http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
> 
> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
> article.

I believe this is because of a common misconception of what FreeBSD is.
In essence FreeBSD would be the equivalent of the Linux kernel, except
we have a userland integrated. No one would claim that the Linux kernel
was a 'distro' that needed a GUI installer, yet some think that of FreeBSD.

> 
> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
> graphical installer?

No, but it would be great if there were some offerings in ports for
those who wished to roll their own 'distro' ;-).


-- 
- db@FreeBSD.org db@db.net http://www.db.net/~db
From heidi.wyss at nordultra.com  Wed Dec 23 14:45:24 2009
From: heidi.wyss at nordultra.com (Heidi Wyss)
Date: Wed Dec 23 14:45:31 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <20091223120018.47CA410656C2@hub.freebsd.org>
References: <20091223120018.47CA410656C2@hub.freebsd.org>
Message-ID: <4B322794.4000504@nordultra.com>

> I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only
> because I've done it so many times.  The first few attempts were extremely
> frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense --
> especially if something goes wrong.  Please keep that in mind, everyone on
> this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you
> remember the first time(s) you used it?  Know a fairly seasoned linux user
> that has never used FreeBSD?  Sit them down at a machine and watch them try
> to install it.
> 
> First impressions are important!  I won't go into the gui vs non-gui
> installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is
> definitely a good thing.
> 

My first install of FreebSD, 5x, years ago, went smoothly, even with 
that not-so-smooth default install script, because I had first carefully 
read the handbook section on installing and hence had enough 
understanding about what I was trying to do that I was able to happily 
muddle through. I do recall that getting X up and running was not easy 
and may have taken an hour or so, but likewise, the FreeBSD handbook and 
a man page or two got me by. I was also very motivated, since my own 
migration to FreeBSD was not a happenstance whim, but researched and 
planned.

Last week I did a fresh install of FreeBSD 8. It was more or less a snap 
(aside from some wee glitches, stuff like two WM dockapps I'd brought 
forward from an earlier desktop setup working, but literally throwing 
off millions of IO errors), either way, I found it rather easy only 
because I'd done it a few times before and knew how to deal with what 
might come up (and again, read the documentation when I didn't).

 From what I've seen, almost all users (even "advanced" ones coming from 
Linux) who try and fail to install FreeBSD indeed haven't read the 
handbook and aren't very willing to do so. The installation dialog does 
have some odd steps which, while no big thing for someone who's heeding 
the docs, will likely be seen as utter failures for someone who's not. 
Hence I see a FreeBSD installation as a "cultural" shift which doesn't 
work for most users, who (understandably, I guess) want an easy 
point-and-click installation. Likewise, most of the so very helpful and 
slick things about running a FreeBSD desktop, along with all those 
wonderful ports, come through at least some willingness to keep reading 
man pages, beginning with running the wholly automated compile scripts 
from a command line as root, never mind little tricks like typing 
"rehash" when the installation's done.

A smooth graphical install program would very likely draw many new users 
to FreeBSD and may be the only way to do so. Moreover, with what looks 
to me like the almost wholly automated hardware detection now in Xorg 
7.4, even X could be configured by scripts on the fly most of the time, 
with the installation optionally offering to end with a wide choice of 
windowed GUIs such as Gnome, KDE, FluxBox, WindowMaker and so on. Hey, 
with a few hundred thousand more desktop users, browser-embedded, native 
Flash might even show up!

I did have to configure my Swiss keyboard manually though, which was 
slightly daunting (which is to say, took me about 15 minutes rather than 
1 or 2) because the config terms for this kind of KB weren't 
straightforwardly defined.

I'll end with this little tale, only to stir up thoughts: When I got the 
new versions of mplayer and vlc installed on FBSD8, I couldn't play most 
of my store-bought DVDs. Since I knew there had to be an easy fix, five 
minutes of searching on the Internet brought the easy fix (FreeBSD is so 
stable and reliable, once configured, I'd wholly forgotten about the 
CD/DVD device permissions), but how many so-called "mainstream" desktop 
users would get through that kind of glitch? Not many, however much 
someone like me, who's already quite delighted with FreeBSD, might wish 
otherwise.

Heidi




From jhs at berklix.com  Wed Dec 23 14:50:43 2009
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Wed Dec 23 14:50:54 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love 
In-Reply-To: Your message "Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:17 GMT."
	<4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> 
Message-ID: <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>

Matthew Seaman wrote:
> ... an installer as
>  a
> CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do 
> the
> installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to al
> low
> users to create the installation script interactively.  

I admit being seduced at times by graphical interfaces, but 
bland blue screens hide a lot of action & info CLI allows.

I was told blind people need CLI, cos Braille output devices do one
line of 40 chars, (& expensive; possibly mass production might lower
costs / inrease resolution, but Braille is different for different
languages, discouraging mass production ).


Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer@hamburg.de> wrote:

> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic
> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or
> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but
> surely difficult to implement).

Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg
	/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg 
Which could then be edited by all of
	Front end CLI		(*)
	Front end curses GUI	(*)
		(*)		Maybe these 2 alternatives should be 
				the first question the installer asks ?
	Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete 
				- Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone 
				  would probably want to write one).
	vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media,
		to auto install on multiple identical new machines.

All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain:
	This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and
	will eventually be replaced.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
Mail plain text not quoted-printable, HTML or Base64:  http://asciiribbon.org
From tonyt at logyst.com  Wed Dec 23 15:00:12 2009
From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore)
Date: Wed Dec 23 15:00:22 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <20091223131733.GA34302@night.db.net>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
	<20091223131733.GA34302@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <22166b750912230700s84ed17aw1dea98384ef56974@mail.gmail.com>

2009/12/24 Diane Bruce <db@db.net>:
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 07:24:10PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
>> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>> >http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>>
>> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
>> article.
>
> I believe this is because of a common misconception of what FreeBSD is.
> In essence FreeBSD would be the equivalent of the Linux kernel, except
> we have a userland integrated. No one would claim that the Linux kernel
> was a 'distro' that needed a GUI installer, yet some think that of FreeBSD.

I think of FreeBSD as kernel/base/ports, the equivalent in the Linux
world would be a mix of Debian/Gentoo. In essence, FreeBSD is an
operating system (the primary distro of the kernel) with derivatives
that enable specific applications (FreeNAS, PC-BSD). I don't think
anyone would claim FreeBSD is a kernel and userland that required
arcane knowledge to install and run. I'd compare PC-BSD to Ubuntu, but
even kernel/base has no real equivalent in the Linux world.

I still wonder about the drive geometry messages though; but after
many years, have learnt that I can safely accept what the bios is
reporting. True, I'm ambivalent about a graphical installer, but I've
bootstrapped installs from kernel and network drivers (for fun), and I
don't think the current installer is clear or obvoius without the
handbook (if only we could get people to read it!).

>> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
>> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
>> graphical installer?
>
> No, but it would be great if there were some offerings in ports for
> those who wished to roll their own 'distro' ;-).

In many ways, the base/ports design is of itself a way to roll your own.

Tony
From randi at freebsd.org  Wed Dec 23 15:25:30 2009
From: randi at freebsd.org (Randi Harper)
Date: Wed Dec 23 15:25:41 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
	<200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey <jhs@berklix.com> wrote:
> Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer@hamburg.de> wrote:
>
>> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic
>> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or
>> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but
>> surely difficult to implement).
>
> Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg
> ? ? ? ?/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg
> Which could then be edited by all of
> ? ? ? ?Front end CLI ? ? ? ? ? (*)
> ? ? ? ?Front end curses GUI ? ?(*)
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(*) ? ? ? ? ? ? Maybe these 2 alternatives should be
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?the first question the installer asks ?
> ? ? ? ?Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?would probably want to write one).
> ? ? ? ?vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media,
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?to auto install on multiple identical new machines.


I would sooner stab myself in the face.


> All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain:
> ? ? ? ?This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and
> ? ? ? ?will eventually be replaced.


Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until
then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :)

-- randi
From jhs at berklix.com  Wed Dec 23 15:48:56 2009
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Wed Dec 23 15:49:02 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love 
In-Reply-To: Your message "Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 PST."
	<e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net>

Randi Harper wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey <jhs@berklix.com> wrote:
> > Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer@hamburg.de> wrote:
> >
> >> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic
> >> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or
> >> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but
> >> surely difficult to implement).
> >
> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg
> >        /usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg
> > Which could then be edited by all of
> >        Front end CLI           (*)
> >        Front end curses GUI    (*)
> >                (*)             Maybe these 2 alternatives should be
> >                                the first question the installer asks ?
> >        Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete
> >                                - Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone
> >                                  would probably want to write one).
> >        vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media,
> >                to auto install on multiple identical new machines.
> 
> 
> I would sooner stab myself in the face.

Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to
	CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ?

I was trying to think of a unifying structure that would allow for
variant personal preferences, inc. prefs to avoid some interfaces.
(eg personally I've no use for X11 post install, or 'vi install.cfg`
mass production install,  but there's others it would attract).

> > All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain:
> >        This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and
> >        will eventually be replaced.
> 
> 
> Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until
> then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :)

Yes, & All will never agree, it's schismatic, sort of thing
attractive to PCBSD DesktopBSD or Yet-Another-BSD forks/front ends, 
or about as endless discussion as which brewery brews best beer :-)

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
Mail plain text not quoted-printable, HTML or Base64:  http://asciiribbon.org
From randi at freebsd.org  Wed Dec 23 16:04:21 2009
From: randi at freebsd.org (Randi Harper)
Date: Wed Dec 23 16:04:28 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com>
	<200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <e277d6c80912230804k57470a3akda9c943ccc40e0d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Julian H. Stacey <jhs@berklix.com> wrote:
> Randi Harper wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey <jhs@berklix.com> wrote:
>> > Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer@hamburg.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic
>> >> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or
>> >> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but
>> >> surely difficult to implement).
>> >
>> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg
>> > ? ? ? ?/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg
>> > Which could then be edited by all of
>> > ? ? ? ?Front end CLI ? ? ? ? ? (*)
>> > ? ? ? ?Front end curses GUI ? ?(*)
>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(*) ? ? ? ? ? ? Maybe these 2 alternatives should be
>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?the first question the installer asks ?
>> > ? ? ? ?Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete
>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone
>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?would probably want to write one).
>> > ? ? ? ?vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media,
>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?to auto install on multiple identical new machines.
>>
>>
>> I would sooner stab myself in the face.
>
> Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to
> ? ? ? ?CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ?


All of the above. The bug list for sysinstall is not small. Even if
this wasn't the case, I'm not even going to work on introducing that
many options and obfuscating the code that much more. The mere thought
of the rewrite involved in adding that kind of support makes my head
feel like the knife is already in place.

The only support I've been *thinking* about adding is a simple CLI in
addition to the existing libdialog (ncurses) install. This would still
be a not insignificant modification, but there are issues that make
using a libdialog based installer problematic on some displays. It's a
fun idea to kick around, but it's not a priority.

I don't even know what you mean by vi, but it sounds confusing and
unnecessary. This is what install.cfg is for - so you can define the
parameters of an installation beforehand.


-- randi
From randi at freebsd.org  Wed Dec 23 16:11:08 2009
From: randi at freebsd.org (Randi Harper)
Date: Wed Dec 23 16:11:14 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e277d6c80912230811q20083d58k6b6f3690270ad701@mail.gmail.com>

Incidentally, I've contacted the author of this article and offered to
correct/discuss some of his assumptions. Waiting to see if he decides
to email me back. :P

-- randi



On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Jan Husar <jan.husar@skosi.org> wrote:
> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>
> --
> -----------------------------------
> | ?Jan Husar
> |
> | doing what matters
> | http://tinyurl.com/ya4xlqe
>
> Earthcause - in the cause of the Planet
> #1 Mission to Kosovo (2009, 2010)
> #2 Mission to Cambodia (2010)
> #3 Mission to Galapagos (planning)
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
From trhodes at FreeBSD.org  Wed Dec 23 16:16:58 2009
From: trhodes at FreeBSD.org (Tom Rhodes)
Date: Wed Dec 23 16:17:04 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
	<200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
	<e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091223104546.787e0bdf.trhodes@FreeBSD.org>

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 -0800
Randi Harper <randi@freebsd.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey <jhs@berklix.com> wrote:
> > Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer@hamburg.de> wrote:
> >
> >> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic
> >> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or
> >> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but
> >> surely difficult to implement).
> >
> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg
> > ? ? ? ?/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg
> > Which could then be edited by all of
> > ? ? ? ?Front end CLI ? ? ? ? ? (*)
> > ? ? ? ?Front end curses GUI ? ?(*)
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(*) ? ? ? ? ? ? Maybe these 2 alternatives should be
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?the first question the installer asks ?
> > ? ? ? ?Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?would probably want to write one).
> > ? ? ? ?vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media,
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?to auto install on multiple identical new machines.
> 
> 
> I would sooner stab myself in the face.

Editing disks in vi is fun apparently!  :)

> 
> 
> > All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain:
> > ? ? ? ?This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and
> > ? ? ? ?will eventually be replaced.
> 
> 
> Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until
> then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :)

What happened to the BSD installer?  And finstall ... Ivan?
Ivan *knock knock*  ;)

-- 
Tom Rhodes
From tonyt at logyst.com  Wed Dec 23 16:53:02 2009
From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore)
Date: Wed Dec 23 16:53:08 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <e277d6c80912230804k57470a3akda9c943ccc40e0d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com>
	<200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net>
	<e277d6c80912230804k57470a3akda9c943ccc40e0d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com>

>>> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg
>>> > ? ? ? ?/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg
>>> > Which could then be edited by all of
>>> > ? ? ? ?Front end CLI ? ? ? ? ? (*)
>>> > ? ? ? ?Front end curses GUI ? ?(*)
>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(*) ? ? ? ? ? ? Maybe these 2 alternatives should be
>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?the first question the installer asks ?
>>> > ? ? ? ?Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete
>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone
>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?would probably want to write one).
>>> > ? ? ? ?vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media,
>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?to auto install on multiple identical new machines.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would sooner stab myself in the face.
>>
>> Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to
>> ? ? ? ?CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ?
>
>
> All of the above. The bug list for sysinstall is not small. Even if
> this wasn't the case, I'm not even going to work on introducing that
> many options and obfuscating the code that much more. The mere thought
> of the rewrite involved in adding that kind of support makes my head
> feel like the knife is already in place.

The idea is that it "simplifies" the code by making it more modular.
All the final "sysinstall" has to do is execute the specifics of
install.cfg. It's just a text file, anything can modify it - of
course, in a standardised way. The suggestion is to develop front-ends
that can generate/modify such a file which the installer back-end will
execute. Think of it as functional programming for installers - define
the installations options in a declarative way, and let the installer
take care of the rest.

Yes, trying to implement such a thing may drive you to stab yourself
in the face - you can do that with a toothpick, but the idea should
cause you to sharpen a different blade. No one is asking you to do it,
just think of some possibilities.


> The only support I've been *thinking* about adding is a simple CLI in
> addition to the existing libdialog (ncurses) install. This would still
> be a not insignificant modification, but there are issues that make
> using a libdialog based installer problematic on some displays. It's a
> fun idea to kick around, but it's not a priority.
>
> I don't even know what you mean by vi, but it sounds confusing and
> unnecessary. This is what install.cfg is for - so you can define the
> parameters of an installation beforehand.

vi is an arcane, obscure text editor that is used by alpha/uber-geeks
to modify *.cfg files ;) No one in their right mind would suggest the
possibility of manually editing a text file, let alone the sysinstall
.cfg file. Who knows what configuration options would be possible?

Having cli/X11/ncurses/text interfaces to install.cfg seems ideal to
me. The technical difficulty alone would in all likelihood ground it,
it doesn't need to be shot down.

Tony
From randi at freebsd.org  Wed Dec 23 16:59:55 2009
From: randi at freebsd.org (Randi Harper)
Date: Wed Dec 23 17:00:01 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com>
	<200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net>
	<e277d6c80912230804k57470a3akda9c943ccc40e0d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e277d6c80912230859m2f948c19j2ee11ced257f0349@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Tony Theodore <tonyt@logyst.com> wrote:
>>>> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg
>>>> > ? ? ? ?/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg
>>>> > Which could then be edited by all of
>>>> > ? ? ? ?Front end CLI ? ? ? ? ? (*)
>>>> > ? ? ? ?Front end curses GUI ? ?(*)
>>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(*) ? ? ? ? ? ? Maybe these 2 alternatives should be
>>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?the first question the installer asks ?
>>>> > ? ? ? ?Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete
>>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone
>>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?would probably want to write one).
>>>> > ? ? ? ?vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media,
>>>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?to auto install on multiple identical new machines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would sooner stab myself in the face.
>>>
>>> Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to
>>> ? ? ? ?CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ?
>>
>>
>> All of the above. The bug list for sysinstall is not small. Even if
>> this wasn't the case, I'm not even going to work on introducing that
>> many options and obfuscating the code that much more. The mere thought
>> of the rewrite involved in adding that kind of support makes my head
>> feel like the knife is already in place.
>
> The idea is that it "simplifies" the code by making it more modular.
> All the final "sysinstall" has to do is execute the specifics of
> install.cfg. It's just a text file, anything can modify it - of
> course, in a standardised way. The suggestion is to develop front-ends
> that can generate/modify such a file which the installer back-end will
> execute. Think of it as functional programming for installers - define
> the installations options in a declarative way, and let the installer
> take care of the rest.
>
> Yes, trying to implement such a thing may drive you to stab yourself
> in the face - you can do that with a toothpick, but the idea should
> cause you to sharpen a different blade. No one is asking you to do it,
> just think of some possibilities.
>
>
>> The only support I've been *thinking* about adding is a simple CLI in
>> addition to the existing libdialog (ncurses) install. This would still
>> be a not insignificant modification, but there are issues that make
>> using a libdialog based installer problematic on some displays. It's a
>> fun idea to kick around, but it's not a priority.
>>
>> I don't even know what you mean by vi, but it sounds confusing and
>> unnecessary. This is what install.cfg is for - so you can define the
>> parameters of an installation beforehand.
>
> vi is an arcane, obscure text editor that is used by alpha/uber-geeks
> to modify *.cfg files ;) No one in their right mind would suggest the
> possibility of manually editing a text file, let alone the sysinstall
> .cfg file. Who knows what configuration options would be possible?


Yeah... I know what vi *is*. I don't see how it's relevant as an
installation option. And by the way, you do edit the install.cfg file
by hand. We don't have a handy tool to automagically create one of
these as far as I know. You know what options are possible by looking
at the sysinstall man page, looking at the example install.cfg file,
or reading sysinstall.h.


>
> Having cli/X11/ncurses/text interfaces to install.cfg seems ideal to
> me. The technical difficulty alone would in all likelihood ground it,
> it doesn't need to be shot down.


I'm shooting it down as in "I am not doing this" because I'm currently
the person working on sysinstall. ;)


-- randi
From fjwcash at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 17:00:08 2009
From: fjwcash at gmail.com (Freddie Cash)
Date: Wed Dec 23 17:00:14 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <1261571654.3837.11.camel@earth.sol>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
	<4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
	<1261571654.3837.11.camel@earth.sol>
Message-ID: <b269bc570912230833h7f4dda1fgfd88dc2e6a449c56@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer@hamburg.de>wrote:

> On wednesday, the 23.12.2009, 08:38 +0000 Matthew Seaman wrote:
> > At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't
> have
> > sufficient skill to do.  Or sufficient time.)  I'd design an installer as
> a
> > CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do
> the
> > installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to
> allow
> > users to create the installation script interactively.  I think that
> would
> > fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a
> > *shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended
> > installs over serial lines.
> >
> > Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a
> > complete failure.
>
> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic
> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or
> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but
> surely difficult to implement).
>
> This is similar to how the BSD Installer project is organised:  a non-GUI
backend with various Text, GUI, and web frontends available.

-- 
Freddie Cash
fjwcash@gmail.com
From tonyt at logyst.com  Wed Dec 23 18:37:02 2009
From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore)
Date: Wed Dec 23 18:37:08 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <e277d6c80912230859m2f948c19j2ee11ced257f0349@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e277d6c80912230658k45c946ddga3ea807704d7dc61@mail.gmail.com>
	<200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net>
	<e277d6c80912230804k57470a3akda9c943ccc40e0d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com>
	<e277d6c80912230859m2f948c19j2ee11ced257f0349@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22166b750912231037p6bcc0941k975a0d19f1c7c149@mail.gmail.com>

> Yeah... I know what vi *is*. I don't see how it's relevant as an
> installation option. And by the way, you do edit the install.cfg file
> by hand. We don't have a handy tool to automagically create one of
> these as far as I know. You know what options are possible by looking
> at the sysinstall man page, looking at the example install.cfg file,
> or reading sysinstall.h.

I think that's the whole point, there are some people that can/would
like to hand craft an installation file. I'm happy with the advice
from the handbook, and am curious about the man pages, example and
header files, but I've never looked at them (for sysinstall). Many
don't even follow the handbook. As FreeBSD is a general-purpose
operating system, I think it would be impossible to cover the needs of
embedded hardware developers, desktops users, server admins, and the
curious; with a single installer.

>>
>> Having cli/X11/ncurses/text interfaces to install.cfg seems ideal to
>> me. The technical difficulty alone would in all likelihood ground it,
>> it doesn't need to be shot down.
>
>
> I'm shooting it down as in "I am not doing this" because I'm currently
> the person working on sysinstall. ;)

Kudos and thanks to you; through the growing tendency of installers to
be ignorant and rude, sysinstall remains competent and polite (I have
no other words to compare them). This is advocacy, noone is asking
_you_ to do it, but if we could add friendly....

Tony
From marina at surferz.net  Wed Dec 23 20:37:24 2009
From: marina at surferz.net (Marina Brown)
Date: Wed Dec 23 20:37:31 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B327CAB.9000203@surferz.net>

Charlie Kester wrote:
> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
> 
> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
> article.
> 
> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
> graphical installer?
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
> 

I preferr a non-graphical installer. I like the installers of the BSD's.
The simpler the better !

--- Marina Brown
From rnodal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 21:12:25 2009
From: rnodal at gmail.com (Roger)
Date: Wed Dec 23 21:12:31 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <9d972bed0912230847w44269fb0h1f442a184fd96e84@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<9d972bed0912230847w44269fb0h1f442a184fd96e84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d972bed0912231243o64d68b99x63dcfcb50eebe039@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all:

I'm recently new to FreeBSD (former Linux user) and I would like to
share my thoughts in the matter.

(1)
I love *BSD, especially FreeBSD because of the way it is. I read the
handbook before installing it and my
first impressions with the installation process was fine. My biggest
problem was understanding the whole concept of
slices, partitions and the ports but once I got around that,
everything was fine. I have to admit that the installer is a little
bit confusing
at first but once you have done it 2 or 3 times it is very easy to use
and the handbook helps a lot. Also the FreeBSD
mailing lists is full of very nice and helpful people so that really
helped my move from Linux.
Note that my installation was very straight forward so maybe I did not
encounter enough situations to really provide an
accurate opinion on the matter.

(2)
I AGREE that FreeBSD needs to make it easier for new people to
FreeBSD. The reason why I believe that is because the more people
you have using FreeBSD the more feedback the project would get. At the
same time I don't think this effort should come from the core
developers. I think the core developers should concentrate on building
a base system that is stable, secure etc. and then have something
on top of that done by someone else. In other words, provide the
possibility for different type of installers to be built that target
different
audience.

(3) I have a couple of questions so I could better understand the the
whole installer business.

--- How difficult it is to add a couple extra options to the menu that
you are offered when first installing FreeBSD
so that you can choose a particular installer?

--- Assuming this installers where done, how difficult would it be to
make it part of the installation medias (CD, USB, DVD etc).

--- How difficult it is to test an installer? (VirtualBox or some
other virtualization software comes to mind for testing).

--- What kind of knowledge is required/recommended to take on this task?

--- What kind of resources are there available to help with this task?


Feel free to ignore points 1 and 2 since I'm new to FreeBSD and I
probably should be getting involved in this sort of discussions but
any input on
point 3 would be highly appreciated.

-r
From rnodal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 21:13:19 2009
From: rnodal at gmail.com (Roger)
Date: Wed Dec 23 21:13:24 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <9d972bed0912230850p1b202175la82cbdb702cacb7f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<9d972bed0912230847w44269fb0h1f442a184fd96e84@mail.gmail.com> 
	<9d972bed0912230850p1b202175la82cbdb702cacb7f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d972bed0912231241h3ae702dckc214196691a44279@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Roger <rnodal@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love
To: Jan Husar <jan.husar@skosi.org>


On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Roger <rnodal@gmail.com> wrote:

> Feel free to ignore points 1 and 2 since I'm new to FreeBSD and I
> probably should be getting involved in this sort of discussions but
> any input on
> point 3 would be highly appreciated.
>
> -r
>

That should have been ".... SHOULD NOT BE GETTING INVOLVED.....".

-r
From perrin at apotheon.com  Thu Dec 24 00:04:17 2009
From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin)
Date: Thu Dec 24 00:04:24 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
In-Reply-To: <20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
Message-ID: <20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra>

Update:

I confirmed that the scheduled publication date for my article will be
Tuesday the 29th.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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From DooMnix at comcast.net  Thu Dec 24 00:06:06 2009
From: DooMnix at comcast.net (Allen)
Date: Thu Dec 24 00:06:13 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>	<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
	<16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B32AD59.6000102@comcast.net>

Shane Calimlim wrote:
> +1 to a better installer, graphical or not.
>    
I'd settle for one that while installing packages you've selected, 
doesn't sit there saying to switch discs in what seems to be a very 
random order... I still think that would help a lot.... Why DOES the 
installer do that exactly? I can't tell you how many times I've been 
sitting there installing, walked away, and then saw that a package was 
on another disk, and it was either switch, or, not get it installed.... 
And I have decided to wait for disk switching sometimes, but I noticed 
the packages that get skipped for now generally don't install.

So basically, it would be nice if the install was more in the way of 
installing packages in disk order. Like for example:

You start installing, and instead of it saying you need to switch disks, 
it instead finds ALL the packages you're going to install that are in 
that disk, installs them, THEN tells you to put in disc #2 or #3 or 
whatever.

Personally I'd be happy with the BSD version of the Slackware 
installation. Slackware looks a lot like FreeBSD's installation, but the 
disks and package installations go in order and it doesn't ask you to 
put another one back in because it installs all packages in groups on 
each disk, and so after the first disk is finished, you put the second 
in, and it continues, and so on, and the only time you would ever put 
the first back in, is when it was Kernel time, which now isn't even a 
problem either, because now it installs in disk order all the way.

Sorry, I know that was a lot of text, but I use FreeBSD and Linux, and 
both are in use in my network, and I like having both. I would just 
really like to see some good changes to FreeBSD, and I don't think a GUI 
installer is the requirement.

A GUI install could be like an option, maybe, like Linux, where you have 
the option to install either in text mode, or GUI mode, but I'd say get 
the disc switching sorted first. FreeBSD is a great OS, and once the 
install is done, you start up GDM or KDM, or whatever you like, and 
literally anyone including my Mom, can use it.

I once set up a machine with Linux where it would auto boot into KDM, my 
Mom could log in, "just like at work!" and then I set up the desktop so 
that Firefox and something else was there on the desktop, and my Mom 
would go and use it like it was Windows. It was very simple, and 
securing it was very easy, and She asked why the anti virus wasn't 
constantly asking Her to update and taking up CPU time constantly at 
boot up, and I simply said it wasn't needed, nor were reboots. She Liked it.

To make FreeBSD better, try this, as it's my opinion:

1. Sort out the order in which CDs need to be switched.

2. If the installer is to be changed, why not make it similar to the 
Slackware one? It's basically like FreeBSD, but goes in a specific order 
someone on here said would be nice.

3. Making it easier to install patches would probably help A LOT. I know 
if you could do things like you can in Linux or Windows where you just 
install patches with a few clicks, it would be much easier for new 
users. People who use Slackware, can use wget, and upgradepkg 
packagename.tgz and it's done. SuSE is basically easier than Windows, it 
grabs them for you, checks for you, everything. And if you want patches 
in a different way, you tell it not to check at all and you can then do 
it by hand.

Debian has apt-get, and with one line of commands, I can update servers, 
then upgrade packages, and that's very simple, compared to FreeBSD, 
where you have to install updates for the base system, THEN updates for 
the ports, which is prone to breaking if you do something wrong.

I think FreeBSD would benefit greatly from a simpler way of installing 
patches and things. freebsd-update and portupgrade are nice, but, what 
about something that has a GUI that checks a server for updates, or, you 
can tell it to check, and then it downloads and installs them for you? 
That would probably get more Linux users in, and some Windows users who 
feel like trying it.
From Lowell at Be-Well.Ilk.Org  Thu Dec 24 18:30:45 2009
From: Lowell at Be-Well.Ilk.Org (Lowell Gilbert)
Date: Thu Dec 24 18:30:51 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <1261596182.00198604.1261583403@10.7.7.3> (Julian H. Stacey's
	message of "Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:48:38 +0100")
References: <1261596182.00198604.1261583403@10.7.7.3>
Message-ID: <44ws0c5jw4.fsf@lowell-desk.lan>

"Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com> writes:

> Randi Harper wrote:
>> Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until
>> then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :)
>
> Yes, & All will never agree, it's schismatic, sort of thing
> attractive to PCBSD DesktopBSD or Yet-Another-BSD forks/front ends, 
> or about as endless discussion as which brewery brews best beer :-)

But less useful, going by the historical record.  The various breweries
are already producing their products, and I may find new favorites by
discussing them.  But discussing what an installer should do is useless
unless somebody implements the ideas under discussion.  I'd be happy to
see any manner of improvements to/over sysinstall, but not enough to
implement them myself.  [Not even close.]  
From fullermd at over-yonder.net  Fri Dec 25 02:11:19 2009
From: fullermd at over-yonder.net (Matthew D. Fuller)
Date: Fri Dec 25 02:11:26 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
	<200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net>

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 03:50:25PM +0100 I heard the voice of
Julian H. Stacey, and lo! it spake thus:
> 
> All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain:
> 	This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and
> 	will eventually be replaced.

That's a kinder version of what it had in rev 1.1 in 1997, prior to
2.2.5-RELEASE

     This utility is a prototype which lasted approximately 2 years
     past its expiration date and is greatly in need of death.



-- 
Matthew Fuller     (MF4839)   |  fullermd@over-yonder.net
Systems/Network Administrator |  http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/
           On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream.
From salvatore at oems.ch  Fri Dec 25 09:58:16 2009
From: salvatore at oems.ch (Salvatore Albanese)
Date: Fri Dec 25 09:58:23 2009
Subject: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 304, Issue 2
References: <20091223120018.4E42610656C4@hub.freebsd.org>
Message-ID: <E2D1B9C0E8854BAB9BACD206C70C8734@OEMSPC01>

Greetings all after I googled a few online videos on how to freebsd

and came up with many ways how to make an installation
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=How+to+install+FreeBSD&hl=it&emb=0&aq=f#

apart from that, their many advocates who would help you with getting up to
speed with FreeBSD,

I have IT Professionals all the time come to my lab for an install party,
and give them a test machine if they are resource starved.

I want to help other discover the secrets of Free Open Source Software, and
that is why I advocate FreeBSD.

Please refere to the way *nix kind of people always make fun of how hard
this software is but compared to other OS's I have to say the invested time
in figuring out how something works is always worth the effort! make it hard
for them and if they can get past the installation they are smart enough to
use it

aren't we snobs enough?
(not I, get close to people ans show them it is easy but they must learn 
something)

oh well if in dought I refere to the man pages and other documents
available, and FreeBSD has lots of doc's!
so there we have a lot of love for FreeBSD because love needs: caring,
exploring, learning about ourselves as well as the OS.

I have a lot of Love for freeBSD, and security is my friend!

Peace and Love to All

Salvatore


>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:33 +0100
> From: Karel Miklav <karel@lovetemple.net>
> Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love
> Cc: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
> Message-ID: <4B314F19.6080802@lovetemple.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Jan Husar wrote:
>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>
> Why a box is not an apple and how would we make a box look like an
> apple? That is a question! Because if we could turn all the boxes into
> apples, oh boy, how many apples would we have! Where all those apples
> would be stored in the world without boxes nobody knows, but let's just
> concentrate on doing one step at the time.
>
> Seriously, power consumers get enough confirmation from the salespeople
> and popular media, they should not be covered here. Or is there a need
> for positioning work regarding our project?
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Karel Miklav
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:24:10 -0800
> From: Charlie Kester <corky1951@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love
> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
> Message-ID: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>>http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>
> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
> article.
>
> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
> graphical installer?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:55:54 -0800
> From: Shane Calimlim <shanecalimlim@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love
> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
> Message-ID:
> <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> +1 to a better installer, graphical or not.
>
> I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only
> because I've done it so many times.  The first few attempts were extremely
> frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense --
> especially if something goes wrong.  Please keep that in mind, everyone on
> this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you
> remember the first time(s) you used it?  Know a fairly seasoned linux user
> that has never used FreeBSD?  Sit them down at a machine and watch them
> try
> to install it.
>
> First impressions are important!  I won't go into the gui vs non-gui
> installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is
> definitely a good thing.
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Charlie Kester
> <corky1951@comcast.net>wrote:
>
>> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>>
>>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>>>
>>
>> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
>> article.
>>
>> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
>> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
>> graphical installer?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
>> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org
>> "
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:17 +0000
> From: Matthew Seaman <m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love
> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
> Message-ID: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Charlie Kester wrote:
>> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote:
>>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>>
>> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this
>> article.
>>
>> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get
>> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a
>> graphical installer?
>
> Heh.  It's almost worth implementing a graphical installer just to shut
> up the constant moaning.  While I agree that it is a very basic error to
> judge by form and appearance rather than by substance, unfortunately much
> of the rest of the world appears not to agree.
>
> As a project, by not having this sort of layer of gloss on what is likely
> to be the very first thing a new user sees we run the risk of putting off
> complete neophytes who have no other basis on which to judge the OS, and
> who could otherwise develop into the next generation of capable users.
>
> At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't have
> sufficient skill to do.  Or sufficient time.)  I'd design an installer as
> a
> CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do
> the
> installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to
> allow
> users to create the installation script interactively.  I think that would
> fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a
> *shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended
> installs over serial lines.
>
> Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a
> complete failure.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthew
>
> -- 
> Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.                   7 Priory Courtyard
>                                                  Flat 3
> PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey     Ramsgate
>                                                  Kent, CT11 9PW
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:32:26 -0700
> From: Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com>
> Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
> To: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
> Message-ID: <20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:33:49PM +0100, Jan Husar wrote:
>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011
>
> By the way . . . as another writer at TechRepublic, I've written another
> article that responds substantially to what Jack Wallen said about the
> various BSD Unix systems in his article, "Why the BSDs get no love".  My
> article has been submitted to the editor, and I believe it is slated to
> be auto-published next week while most (if not all) of the TR staff is
> off for the holidays under the title "Why security gets no love".
>
> While the actual core topic of the article is the deplorable lack of
> proper attention to security matters in the IT world in general, it uses
> Wallen's article as a springboard, and the beginning of it is largely a
> direct response to the "Why the BSDs get no love" article.  I thought I'd
> bring it up here, since there has been some concern showed on this list
> about the content of Wallen's article.
>
> I'd wait until my article gets published to mention it here, so I could
> provide a direct URL to it at the time, but I might be electronically
> incommunicado at the time (Christmas vacation and all), so I figured I'd
> give anyone interested a heads-up that it's coming.
>
> I welcome any (hopefully constructive) feedback from the FreeBSD Advocacy
> list's members and the larger FreeBSD community, of course.
>
> For the record, this email was composed on my ThinkPad running FreeBSD
> 7.2.  I mention FreeBSD from time to time in my security articles, and
> have been particularly focusing on some matters related to basic
> filesystem security this month in my TechRepublic articles.  While I will
> probably have to lay off the FreeBSD stuff for a little while to keep the
> editors happy, I wouldn't mind suggestions from FreeBSD advocates for
> what other FreeBSD-related topics might make for good security article
> content in the future -- especially if they tie in strongly with more
> "mainstream" security topics.
>
> -- 
> Chad Perrin  [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
>
> End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 304, Issue 2
> ************************************************
>

From astrodog at gmail.com  Fri Dec 25 14:50:54 2009
From: astrodog at gmail.com (Astrodog)
Date: Fri Dec 25 14:51:00 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net>
References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
	<200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
	<20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net>
Message-ID: <2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com>

I think what we're looking at here is that sysinstall should probably
be replaced... but it works well enough that it doesn't *have* to be
replaced, and most people aren't bothered enough by it to write code
to come up with something new. Certainly, having things like zfs
support in sysinstall would be nice... but most of the people using
zfs boot know the system well enough to do it from the Fixit/LiveFS
shell anyway.

Basically... if you really want to see this change, I think you're
gonna have to do it yourself.

--- Harrison
From petrus4 at tpg.com.au  Sat Dec 26 00:59:03 2009
From: petrus4 at tpg.com.au (Petrus)
Date: Sat Dec 26 00:59:09 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk><200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net><20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net>
	<2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001ca85c4$762faa80$0301a8c0@jim4fb89194d83>

>I think what we're looking at here is that sysinstall should probably
> be replaced... but it works well enough that it doesn't *have* to be

The virtue of sysinstall, however, is that it is console based.  I for one 
would rather endure sysinstall's idiosyncracies, if it still means that I'm 
going to be able to reliably install on whatever ancient, eldritch hardware 
I happen to have with me at the time.

If someone wants to write something X based, with hardware detection a la 
Ubuntu, and all the proverbial bells and whistles and flashing lights, then 
by all means; (and I think they already have, with finstall) but I think 
FreeBSD absolutely needs to keep a console-based installer as a fallback for 
old hardware. 

From mike.bybee at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 15:30:55 2009
From: mike.bybee at gmail.com (Mike Bybee)
Date: Sat Dec 26 15:31:01 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
Message-ID: <75813f040912260730w40e7ebfge72fb0686c455cd9@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:43:35 +1000
> From: "Petrus" <petrus4@tpg.com.au>
> Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love
> To: <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
> Message-ID: <001001ca85c4$762faa80$0301a8c0@jim4fb89194d83>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>        reply-type=original
>
> >I think what we're looking at here is that sysinstall should probably
> > be replaced... but it works well enough that it doesn't *have* to be
>
> The virtue of sysinstall, however, is that it is console based.  I for one
> would rather endure sysinstall's idiosyncracies, if it still means that I'm
> going to be able to reliably install on whatever ancient, eldritch hardware
> I happen to have with me at the time.
>
> If someone wants to write something X based, with hardware detection a la
> Ubuntu, and all the proverbial bells and whistles and flashing lights, then
> by all means; (and I think they already have, with finstall) but I think
> FreeBSD absolutely needs to keep a console-based installer as a fallback
> for
> old hardware.
>
>
I think PC-BSD does just fine with this portion of it - sysinstall is still
there, version 8 can do a pure FreeBSD 8 install *or* a PC-BSD install (with
the extra PBI bits and whatnot) and has a nice graphical installer as well
as a LiveCD image.

There is absolutely no reason to change the default FreeBSD installer in my
opinion, when the PC-BSD one will suffice for the 'snazzy' desktop installs.

-- 
Thanks,
Mike Bybee
From jhell at dataix.net  Sun Dec 27 04:48:56 2009
From: jhell at dataix.net (jhell)
Date: Sun Dec 27 04:49:03 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
	<200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
	<20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net>
	<2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1443990337.20091226231842@dataix.net>


Friday, December 25, 2009, 9:24:25 AM, you wrote:

> I think what we're looking at here is that sysinstall should probably
> be replaced... but it works well enough that it doesn't *have* to be
> replaced, and most people aren't bothered enough by it to write code
> to come up with something new. Certainly, having things like zfs
> support in sysinstall would be nice... but most of the people using
> zfs boot know the system well enough to do it from the Fixit/LiveFS
> shell anyway.

> Basically... if you really want to see this change, I think you're
> gonna have to do it yourself.

Personally I would like to see something around the likes of
shells/flash menu shell implemented with some modular scripting and
drop-in binaries for other tasks that cannot be accomplished through
the use of shell scripts as elegantly as they would in C. As for
licensing of shells/flash I am unsure but it does bring the ease of
scripting into play that can shield a user from some of the behind the
scenes ugliness.

Snip of the pkg-desc:
Flash is an attempt to create a secure menu-driven shell for UNIX-derived OSes,
while providing user-friendliness and easy configurability. An ideal situation
requiring the use of flash would be a student-run telnet server which needs to:

a) shelter the users from some of the nastiness of UNIX
b) shelter the system from nasty users
c) provide an easy way to launch applications
d) support multitasking/job control as elegantly as possible
e) support easy-to-get-right configuration by administrators
----

In that type of menu it would be easy to drop a script that asks:
A) Would you like a GUI install menu...
B) Would you like a CLI install menu...
C) Get me out of here...
----

It also has a nice little notes side frame that could tell the user a
little more about what is going on if they are confused about the
choices that are selected.


As for my self, I would be willing to contribute some bits & bytes to
see this happen. As for the GUI I would be willing to write the hooks
for it in the menu system but that is as far as I am willing to go
with it. I don't see any satisfactory need or gain in GUI for
just-a-installer.


Best regards.

-- 

 Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:59:02 PM

 jhell

From petrus4 at tpg.com.au  Mon Dec 28 17:59:04 2009
From: petrus4 at tpg.com.au (Petrus)
Date: Mon Dec 28 17:59:10 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
References: <75813f040912260730w40e7ebfge72fb0686c455cd9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001ca87e7$70b00760$0301a8c0@jim4fb89194d83>

> There is absolutely no reason to change the default FreeBSD installer in 
> my
> opinion, when the PC-BSD one will suffice for the 'snazzy' desktop 
> installs.

I won't say that sysinstall couldn't benefit from at least *some* 
renovation. ;)

The interface is fine, sure, but what I'm primarily talking about is the 
download mechanism.  Apparently when certain files get downloaded with it, 
they actually get copied in-place during the transfer process, which means 
that if you abort it, you can end up with partially digested conf files (my 
/etc/passwd got hosed once) all over the place.

What I'd propose would be caching whatever files the system needs to 
download until everything is cached locally, and then installing the lot 
after that, rather than doing both downloading and installing/copying in the 
same step.  That way you can safely abort during the process if you need to. 
A scenario where individual files that are to be rewritten, get temporarily 
backed up until the setup is complete would probably also really help.

So as said, the interface is fine, but I think the internal mechanism could 
definitely benefit from being made a bit more robust. 

From des at des.no  Mon Dec 28 18:20:32 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Mon Dec 28 18:20:41 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com>
	(astrodog@gmail.com's message of "Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:24:25 -0600")
References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>
	<200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net>
	<20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net>
	<2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86r5qf0xld.fsf@ds4.des.no>

Astrodog <astrodog@gmail.com> writes:
> Basically... if you really want to see this change, I think you're
> gonna have to do it yourself.

What do you think this is, a collaborative open source project?  Furrfu!

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From sdavtaker at gmail.com  Mon Dec 28 18:48:49 2009
From: sdavtaker at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Sd=C3=A4vtaker?=)
Date: Mon Dec 28 18:48:58 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love
In-Reply-To: <001001ca87e7$70b00760$0301a8c0@jim4fb89194d83>
References: <75813f040912260730w40e7ebfge72fb0686c455cd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<001001ca87e7$70b00760$0301a8c0@jim4fb89194d83>
Message-ID: <c37d69f60912281026k6c695027jc85f3a8339545ca2@mail.gmail.com>

it will be nice make sysinstall use the port tree, since a lot of
applications in the dvd use to fail the install because dependencies that
can be resolved in the ports (as portinstall/portmaster does whena package
dependency is not fulfilled).


On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 14:59, Petrus <petrus4@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> There is absolutely no reason to change the default FreeBSD installer in my
>> opinion, when the PC-BSD one will suffice for the 'snazzy' desktop
>> installs.
>>
>
> I won't say that sysinstall couldn't benefit from at least *some*
> renovation. ;)
>
> The interface is fine, sure, but what I'm primarily talking about is the
> download mechanism.  Apparently when certain files get downloaded with it,
> they actually get copied in-place during the transfer process, which means
> that if you abort it, you can end up with partially digested conf files (my
> /etc/passwd got hosed once) all over the place.
>
> What I'd propose would be caching whatever files the system needs to
> download until everything is cached locally, and then installing the lot
> after that, rather than doing both downloading and installing/copying in the
> same step.  That way you can safely abort during the process if you need to.
> A scenario where individual files that are to be rewritten, get temporarily
> backed up until the setup is complete would probably also really help.
>
> So as said, the interface is fine, but I think the internal mechanism could
> definitely benefit from being made a bit more robust.
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org
> "
>



-- 
http://dfbsd.trackbsd.org.ar
From keramida at ceid.upatras.gr  Tue Dec 29 15:03:03 2009
From: keramida at ceid.upatras.gr (Giorgos Keramidas)
Date: Tue Dec 29 15:03:10 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
In-Reply-To: <20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra> (Chad Perrin's message of
	"Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:56:51 -0700")
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
	<20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra>
Message-ID: <87oclhzvz4.fsf@kobe.laptop>

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:56:51 -0700, Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:
> Update:
>
> I confirmed that the scheduled publication date for my article will be
> Tuesday the 29th.

It's up at http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/security/?p=2888

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From corky1951 at comcast.net  Tue Dec 29 20:52:15 2009
From: corky1951 at comcast.net (Charlie Kester)
Date: Tue Dec 29 20:52:21 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
In-Reply-To: <87oclhzvz4.fsf@kobe.laptop>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
	<20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra> <87oclhzvz4.fsf@kobe.laptop>
Message-ID: <20091229203901.GD25393@comcast.net>

On Tue 29 Dec 2009 at 06:38:23 PST Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:56:51 -0700, Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:
>> Update:
>>
>> I confirmed that the scheduled publication date for my article will be
>> Tuesday the 29th.
>
>It's up at http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/security/?p=2888
>

Well done, Chad!

One question, however.  Are we prepared to back up the claim that the
"sexy" bits of PC-BSD are the least secure?  Your argument depends on
that claim, since it's also implied in your description of development
team's priorities.

From perrin at apotheon.com  Tue Dec 29 22:58:57 2009
From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin)
Date: Tue Dec 29 22:59:03 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
In-Reply-To: <20091229203901.GD25393@comcast.net>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
	<20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra> <87oclhzvz4.fsf@kobe.laptop>
	<20091229203901.GD25393@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20091229225123.GB6542@guilt.hydra>

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 12:39:01PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
> On Tue 29 Dec 2009 at 06:38:23 PST Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> >On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:56:51 -0700, Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> 
> >wrote:
> >>Update:
> >>
> >>I confirmed that the scheduled publication date for my article will be
> >>Tuesday the 29th.
> >
> >It's up at http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/security/?p=2888
> >
> 
> Well done, Chad!

Thanks!


> 
> One question, however.  Are we prepared to back up the claim that the
> "sexy" bits of PC-BSD are the least secure?  Your argument depends on
> that claim, since it's also implied in your description of development
> team's priorities.

Define "we".  As I'm not a core developer for FreeBSD, nor anyone in a
position of official representation of either the OS development project
or the Foundation, my statements in the article should not be taken as
necessarily indicative of anyone's opinions but my own.

The claim about the "sexy" bits of PC-BSD is based on my experience with
tarted-up GUIs and "feature-rich" software.  It is intended as a
generalization rather than a categorical statement of absolute truth.

All stuffy pedantry of mine aside, though, if you want to expand on your
concerns, I'd be happy to read about them.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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From corky1951 at comcast.net  Tue Dec 29 23:17:09 2009
From: corky1951 at comcast.net (Charlie Kester)
Date: Tue Dec 29 23:17:15 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
In-Reply-To: <20091229225123.GB6542@guilt.hydra>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
	<20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra> <87oclhzvz4.fsf@kobe.laptop>
	<20091229203901.GD25393@comcast.net>
	<20091229225123.GB6542@guilt.hydra>
Message-ID: <20091229231705.GE25393@comcast.net>

On Tue 29 Dec 2009 at 14:51:23 PST Chad Perrin wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 12:39:01PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
>>
>> One question, however.  Are we prepared to back up the claim that the
>> "sexy" bits of PC-BSD are the least secure?  Your argument depends on
>> that claim, since it's also implied in your description of development
>> team's priorities.
>
>Define "we".  As I'm not a core developer for FreeBSD, nor anyone in a
>position of official representation of either the OS development project
>or the Foundation, my statements in the article should not be taken as
>necessarily indicative of anyone's opinions but my own.

I said "we" rather than "you" because I agree with your argument. :)

>
>The claim about the "sexy" bits of PC-BSD is based on my experience with
>tarted-up GUIs and "feature-rich" software.  It is intended as a
>generalization rather than a categorical statement of absolute truth.
>
>All stuffy pedantry of mine aside, though, if you want to expand on
>your concerns, I'd be happy to read about them.

I was wondering if anyone has done a study of reported security holes
and if that data supports the assertion that the "sexy" GUI stuff PC-BSD
adds was more likely to be involved than the base OS.

But even if there hasn't been any such study, I think it would be
worthwhile to flesh out your assertion with a few examples of the kind
of security problems that arise when the "sexy" stuff is used.

As I said above, I think the argument stands or falls on our ability to
defend this point.

From perrin at apotheon.com  Thu Dec 31 07:27:10 2009
From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin)
Date: Thu Dec 31 07:27:17 2009
Subject: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love)
In-Reply-To: <20091229231705.GE25393@comcast.net>
References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra>
	<20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra> <87oclhzvz4.fsf@kobe.laptop>
	<20091229203901.GD25393@comcast.net>
	<20091229225123.GB6542@guilt.hydra>
	<20091229231705.GE25393@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20091231071933.GB16919@guilt.hydra>

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 03:17:05PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
> On Tue 29 Dec 2009 at 14:51:23 PST Chad Perrin wrote:
> >On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 12:39:01PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
> >>
> >>One question, however.  Are we prepared to back up the claim that the
> >>"sexy" bits of PC-BSD are the least secure?  Your argument depends on
> >>that claim, since it's also implied in your description of development
> >>team's priorities.
> >
> >Define "we".  As I'm not a core developer for FreeBSD, nor anyone in a
> >position of official representation of either the OS development project
> >or the Foundation, my statements in the article should not be taken as
> >necessarily indicative of anyone's opinions but my own.
> 
> I said "we" rather than "you" because I agree with your argument. :)

Ahh, gotcha.  Thanks for clarifying.


> >
> >The claim about the "sexy" bits of PC-BSD is based on my experience with
> >tarted-up GUIs and "feature-rich" software.  It is intended as a
> >generalization rather than a categorical statement of absolute truth.
> >
> >All stuffy pedantry of mine aside, though, if you want to expand on
> >your concerns, I'd be happy to read about them.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has done a study of reported security holes
> and if that data supports the assertion that the "sexy" GUI stuff PC-BSD
> adds was more likely to be involved than the base OS.

The only studies I know of that even come close to addressing these
issues are the studies that show there tends to be a semi-constant rate
of bugs per so-many lines of code for software projects within particular
subcultures.  That being the case, the sheer weight of lines of code
involved in KDE (the default GUI of PC-BSD), for instance, implies
substantial increase in total number of potentially security-damaging
bugs on the system.

More to the point, though, kitchen sink style installs also tend to run
extra services, redundant server processes, auto-run a bunch of stuff,
and so on -- and I don't really feel I personally need a study to tell me
that's a recipe for security failure somewhere down the road.  I totally
understand the desire for some kind of statistical study that supports
that claim, though, whether for your own edification or for that of
others.


> 
> But even if there hasn't been any such study, I think it would be
> worthwhile to flesh out your assertion with a few examples of the kind
> of security problems that arise when the "sexy" stuff is used.

I don't recall off-hand whether I've written previous articles on that
subject.  I may write some in the future that address that in more depth.
Since that point in particular seemed somewhat outside the scope of the
article to try to support in depth, I kinda left it where it lay.  Nobody
has challenged the point in the discussion thread following the article,
last I checked. . . .


> 
> As I said above, I think the argument stands or falls on our ability to
> defend this point.

Given an obvious need to do so, I'm happy to offer what support I have
for the point.  You're the only person who has asked, though.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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