please, a little sanity about the logo

Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg listsub at
Tue Feb 15 11:31:29 PST 2005

cpghost at wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 04:00:00PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
>>>This is similar to SuSE, RedHat and others who use their own
>>>logos to distribute the one and only Linux kernel and
>>>an assorted set of libraries and utilities. "Linux" itself
>>>doesn't have a logo either (if we followed the party line
>>>that Tux and Beastie were mascots and not logos).
>>Thats because nobody runs Linux. They run RedHat, SuSe, Debian 
>>etc. Linux is a kernel, FreeBSD is an OS. There is a big difference.
>>Your logic here implies that the suggestion would be to create a 
>>logo for the FreeBSD *kernel*, and that has afaik never even been 
>>brought up.
> No, this is not a Kernel vs. OS argument. It's about the difference
> between the developers (kernel + userland in Linuxland, or the
> whole FreeBSD OS in our case), and the vendors. The developers
> do what they can do best: writing and testing excellent code.
> The vendors package that stuff in neat boxes, print advertizing
> and send out people to convince the "suits" to buy their packed
> product.

I never tried to make it a kernel vs os argument. You mentioned 
that linux does not have a logo, and I pointed out that linux is 
not an os, while FreeBSD is.
   Currently, FreeBSD does not have much support among vendors. 
Atleast not the kind of support that creates logos and convince 
suits. I see the logo-contest as a sign that the project is 
indeed trying to change that, and that they are atleast willing 
to meet the vendors half-way.
   Developers should not have to create logos and market a 
product, thats very true, but if the community surrounding the 
developers fence off any offer to help with those tasks, the 
developers will be forced to do them. That is exactly whats 
happening here. People are stepping in from all directions and 
offer to improve FreeBSD's image, but they face nothing but 
hostility. People are screaming everything from "we dont need no 
logo" and "dont touch our Beastie" to "FreeBSD is a technical 
project, keep your marketing away from us".
If that is how we treat voulenteers trying to help, free of 
charge, then why do you think any vendor would even consider 
approaching us?

> Vendors are excellent at designing logos, and at marketing (at least
> they should be!), while developers excel at coding. That's my point,
> not that silly Kernel+Userland vs Whole OS comparison.

Im not disagreeing with the first sentence, and it was you that 
brought up the kernel/userland/os discussion.

>>>The FreeBSD Project should IMHO remain vendor neutral,
>>>and stick to code development. 
>>Absolutely. No argument here, and so far I have not heard anyone 
>>else, pro or con image change, argue otherwise.
> This is exactly the point here. By calling for a logo competition,
> the Project is mutating into a vendor. If that is really the idea,
> a lot of problems could ensue, e.g. for the Foundation's non-profit
> status etc...

By calling for a logo competition, the project shows interest in 
having vendor support. This does not mean that the project itself 
is turning into a vendor.
Having a logo will in no way endanger the non-profit status. Show 
me a number of serious non-profit organisations, and I will most 
likely be able to dig up the same number of logos.

> Talking about this is perhaps much more important that a puny fight
> over logos, Beastie, or whatever.
>>As pointed out earlier, FreeBSD runs on more edge webservers then 
>>most of the linux distros combined, and still hardly anyone 
>>outside the community of hardcore geeks knows what BSD is. Just 
>>that sentence alone should get people to realize that maybe we 
>>are missing something here!
> You're absolutely right here!

And still you manage to completely missunderstand almost 
everything I say. :)

> Cheers,
> -cpghost.

   I clearly see a need for the FreeBSD project to improve its 
image, and I will do my best to help it with that. Some people 
does not want the image to improve, so I guess they will just 
have to try and stop me.
   I simply state the obviuos; we will have to agree to disagree 
on this subject.

I will not argue further. Let this thread die now.


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