From nobody Tue Aug 01 12:08:47 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RFYt81pRhz4q7kG for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 12:13:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom.browder@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RFYt23rCqz3tYH for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2023 12:13:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom.browder@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=jMQ+HEK1; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tom.browder@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tom.browder@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-44768034962so1410888137.3 for ; Tue, 01 Aug 2023 05:13:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1690892009; x=1691496809; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=yI5lB8SRyoki1FfRnrO4/9jIvpVUcooTpSrCo9Yh0JU=; b=jMQ+HEK1UJ3otrzsSYpY6M+O+XyEM4OdnNCn4S6YYKOnn1DmMjzyimQxpi6QSt6RIT hAU0y7Qflm0RlNpFtCGPAZlDdqtNTJTh5cIa3rxh2fPsBvQ7chp0Lwn6zKnRsjnfaO0D byc2iZbzxkualauXUOaPMKf9zPj9W3I+AUDK5LgpWI9wUDkv45LY0ajhuyTjRqooyOtD nlJnCQ2555UVG2LZjDqwE1MQZGcIovA9nJi6AruEavqK78CJxbyPgUEOsGrp3XxQ06sT C4wwBXX7D5xHLYt3OT20OPGb08loK5ZxzHAdPov4knE/EKEPbLjAbuBLIW70ER4MVM6w KlCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1690892009; x=1691496809; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=yI5lB8SRyoki1FfRnrO4/9jIvpVUcooTpSrCo9Yh0JU=; b=BOdbiXSSpFpRz26fmR3bX8pljWeGX32YaSDT27I549yyN4LbpiK/fG+uBJyvNt40yv BV6grGKCkRkNpWlA9+Gk5ljjU4xRcu8ghxPS5wuw9mTHZTruOP7lbed/61Sv+1h4THGl ccWBZS+63KKc53YqCHZRM3inMxffaB/jwruuq5r7MGA3/BvVH36Ivu//hKp5T8NC04M1 EI3qJFHif46MNdQiD3TKPEHu7nPpkgdLkY5fJBoEfaTEEmyhXtoWT1vFISk+HQmMcrRo jDRiVcXsXhQMVFtz6O6xmZyYCoY8DPFiriz27mQHzBrx/a7uu7QuHGX0PL8XJPrlRLbF LMag== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLbEmLDWUUYfwPAf3+cjP7+O6lRrDhUrs770G/+GKd6EDHO4/imM aRpRBe/Vs0wKCgiiWp499XXTA7HJYirHLGxn+vPAZ9Bb X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlHaxEj8p97nbK5I/7yhJGOvN//+67N5lZD1UfrOV6djxK7jHL9yvv7JUO31jmjAmBWpHtaBf6Y4NnIcXGIZb9o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:284b:b0:447:54ff:388 with SMTP id az11-20020a056102284b00b0044754ff0388mr1452571vsb.23.1690892008451; Tue, 01 Aug 2023 05:13:28 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Browder Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 07:08:47 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: Raku [Was: sympa mailing list manager] To: questions@freebsd.org Cc: perl6-users Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008475fd0601db79ba" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.56 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.947]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.941]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.68)[-0.677]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20221208]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4RFYt23rCqz3tYH X-Spamd-Bar: --- --0000000000008475fd0601db79ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 01:29 wrote: > Tom: > > > In return, I offer you a great language in place of Python: Raku > > (formerly Perl 6). I think you will like it, and I think it is much > > easier for new coders to learn. Check it out here: > > . > > Lazy (and OT) question: how does Raku deal with the challenge of > managing module dependencies, and in particular native code > dependencies -- which in Python led to the slowly developing horror > story of setuptools / pip / venv / poetry / conda / ... That is a great question, and I can give you a layman's take on it. (I have CC'd one of our email lists, IRC #raku and sister channels are where most interaction occurs these days). In no special order: We have a powerful module management program, 'zef', which drives the module installation, removal, search, and other associated actions. Upon request for installation, its default action is to go completely through the dependency chain and download (if it's not installed), test, and install each required module. We now have our own published-module archiving system, 'Fez' (which we moved to from Perl's CPAN), which provides much more security and less possibility of malicious actors creating evil in the archive. We have a new public location to search for modules at https://raku.land>. We have a system of published module requirements encapsulated in a special JSON file which interacts with the zef installer. The mainainers of the major Raku executive program (called Rakudo) regularly run a series of tests of the most recently published executive on amost all of the known public modules. Our core team tries to publish an updated version of Raku monthly, and those releases are numbered by year and month, e.g., the next release will be 2023.08. Raku major versions follow Larry Wall's initial release scheme which started the first stable release at 6.c on Christmas Day of 2015. The current release is 6.d with release 6.e in the wings to be released next. Please visit IRC channels #raku, #raku-beginner, and #raku-dev for helpful and friendy people. See docs at . Visit the Raku home at . Also see for downloading and installing the executive program. Most of the module authors develop on Github.com. The two core developent sites are and . Keeping native code running on the three major OSs (Linux, MacOS, and Windows) is tough. The core team manages to keep the executive and its basic tests running on those systems, but, speaking for my modules, Windows support is shaky. I've been babbling too long here, but I do love Raku. I have tried Python early on (and was paid for it), but for a C-style language programmer, Python's whitespace style is too freakish (plus trying to learn the list of required modules to start anything is a pain). Best regards, -Tom P.S. Raku is a HUGE language built-in-wise (for example, there are over 100 oerators). A beginner will probably go a long while before he or she ever has to "use" any modules at all. --0000000000008475fd0601db79ba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 01:29 <little.analyst892@aceecat.org> wrote:
Tom:

> In return, I offer you a great language in place of Python: Raku
> (formerly Perl 6). I think you will like it, and I think it is much > easier for new coders to learn. Check it out here:
> <= https://Raku.org>.

Lazy (and OT) question: how does Raku deal with the challenge of
managing module dependencies, and in particular native code
dependencies -- which in Python led to the slowly developing horror
story of setuptools / pip / venv / poetry / conda / ...

That is a great question, and I can = give you a layman's take on it. (I have =C2=A0CC'd one of our email= lists, IRC #raku and sister channels are where most interaction occurs the= se=C2=A0days). In no special order:

We have a powerful module management program, 'zef', wh= ich drives the module installation, removal, search, and other associated a= ctions. Upon request for installation, its default action is to go complete= ly through the dependency chain and download (if it's not installed), t= est, and install each required module.=C2=A0

We now have our own published-module archiving system,= 'Fez' =C2=A0(which we moved to from Perl's CPAN), which provid= es much more security and less possibility of malicious actors creating evi= l in the archive.

We hav= e a new public location to search for modules at https://raku.land>.

We have a system of published module requirements encapsulated in a = special JSON file which interacts with the zef installer.

The mainainers of the major Raku executiv= e program (called Rakudo) regularly run a series of tests of the most recen= tly published executive on amost all of the known public modules.

Our core team tries to publish an= updated version of Raku monthly, and those releases are numbered by year a= nd month, e.g., the next release will be 2023.08.
Raku major versions follow Larry Wall's initi= al release scheme which started the first stable release at 6.c on Christma= s Day of 2015. The current release is 6.d with release 6.e in the wings to = be released next.

Please= visit IRC channels #raku, #raku-beginner, and #raku-dev for helpful and fr= iendy people. See docs at <https://doc= s.raku.org>. Visit the Raku home at <https://raku.org>. Also see <http= s://rakudo.org> for downloading and installing the executive program= .

Most of the module aut= hors develop on Github.com. The two core developent sites are <https://github.com/raku> and <https://github.com/rakudo>.

Keeping native code running on t= he three major OSs (Linux, MacOS, and Windows) is tough. The core team mana= ges to keep the executive and its basic tests running on those systems, but= , speaking for my modules, Windows support is shaky.

I've been babbling too long here, but I do= love Raku. I have tried Python early on (and was paid for it), but for a C= -style language programmer, Python's whitespace style is too freakish (= plus trying to learn the list of required modules to start anything is a pa= in).

Best regards,
=

-Tom
<= br>
P.S. Raku is a HUGE language built-in-wise (for = example, there are over 100 oerators). A beginner will probably go a long w= hile before he or she ever has to "use" any modules at all.
=

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