From nobody Mon Sep 16 15:09:03 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4X6pGh5b8Xz5WDgW for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 15:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joesuf4@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4X6pGh3WZsz4FyG for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 15:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joesuf4@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-374c180d123so1948668f8f.3 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 08:09:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1726499355; x=1727104155; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3o56uoQIl4FhIQA3NBuLdnwNEFfaniy8MrzY7txHJrs=; b=dFqVPD0wWuVlHaIYfKF2eMspSkHMiE52Vxc0FS7n4e9gB5vK1WicFdfgsBIsMFluoW xPx1j2VvpMH99nDdQ4PXFTGFxY9W8y1HGz4QfAkNkS3Yq0ZUjBrlL8J/7AkrfUUE0qNd fZLNU1Ufwe542T9mQkuT53AGeOfyje9IuRbeYjBwnkChavLGWw0/q4bgW6GAcNjpd02w xnEbD+zsZRD5lW5ZjuyAbeRc6gUoCe8p70qFP8kUbtrwsJGAApKOyjeeN6z9Y6ci2oqz 2VPHHmEasnT4QwMSwg9s13bUC2zHplRVvbcDErfLHiW1VrjtbIv9PF9PoRG8m1J8LX6E Utqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1726499355; x=1727104155; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3o56uoQIl4FhIQA3NBuLdnwNEFfaniy8MrzY7txHJrs=; b=S0Darl6rGnuBHt8xCUpKi/AeR0GjClUqPkSrbJJw8rvZYncowZacfmxrO+MW2ng/Az OD5oeEPZdNsrbOIK/HaCvt2VijT0rBPPg+FQu7UyOEXalc+Bt2KOf4cpeRpdyxK/vWkW szxbfc+nZZH6q2B/mNG2eBKLkrSPxYcuChVWbdD6gVZEX3WTKT69oTZPYZ9gU1bK88AO FL9EDZhsTRcrM24aSGoNVtiknLhl128w+COG/I6FNl90/Ma9TVQEEDp6Nfi3Ulmp/dIe P9JKOYYw2wXCqlwwkQIP1UyZoYOoBFvB9CxlKg+KOEF42Y4MyCa8JcXE076qW+u04jhn qPHw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCW21ELjfvHEIlDVzEx0lhfwXdS2e2w7zD9jNQll6GYUEP94hdt6oB/Bkg7KWDMPdOXZ5L0XgG4QJRDwkcg2BiY=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxEp6HcSdJhS2MY2lDxC/3O3M4q5OnifNrpgudCnFzcaOl8Ms3j VKBxwZGpOycO3qxK5GamNumn72TaJCyiXMrkFwiU08VMspTwWwDKjgs68S2KP3dbvtntuEdiIVs WFPG4lm8aVcGnMmWQ1hl62+4IxWA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEjGqMhwwrLT6EeVugFcFbz8THLCmNqI8I99hxjKaB2+Jzamf9MSeHtODLzaHLOUncQZfxCLG5F3hLEQD5spFY= X-Received: by 2002:adf:b197:0:b0:377:2df4:55f6 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-378d61e2710mr5693906f8f.17.1726499354795; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 08:09:14 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <908e7c45fbcea4634427b8d065bb2f20@Leidinger.net> <202409081302.488D2UvB069580@critter.freebsd.dk> <846E87A2-A16B-49C1-9F26-2A6B194782CB@sarenet.es> In-Reply-To: <846E87A2-A16B-49C1-9F26-2A6B194782CB@sarenet.es> From: Joe Schaefer Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:09:03 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) To: Borja Marcos Cc: Kim Shrier , "Peter 'PMc' Much" , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf689206223df42f" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4X6pGh3WZsz4FyG --000000000000bf689206223df42f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correct take. Rust is clearly not a mature ecosystem suitable to be an Operating System platform, commercial or otherwise. Yes DARPA is funding it, like it funds bioterrorism. It=E2=80=99s not the s= ame organization is was 30 years ago. On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 10:54=E2=80=AFAM Borja Marcos w= rote: > > > > On 16 Sep 2024, at 15:57, Kim Shrier wrote: > > I have stayed out of this conversation so far but I agree with Peter. > > I compile all my kernels and ports from source. I make local patches > > when needed. And while I have had some of my patshes accepted > > into the FreeBSD source, I am not a committer. > > One of the outstanding advantages of FreeBSD versus the avian alternative > is > the ports system. > > There are many ports with meaningful compile time options. Typical > conversation > with an avian user: =E2=80=9COk, to make this work you need to tweak this= compile > time > option and compile=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 and the answer is usually =E2=80=9C= whaaat? I don=C2=B4t see that > in the > repo, can=E2=80=99t do=E2=80=9D. > > > I have dabbled with rust, several times and I don=E2=80=99t like it. I= t reminds > > me too much of C++ and I have never liked that language. These > > languages appear to introduce too much complexity and their > > runtime libraries change too much over time. > > I agree with you regarding the runtime changes. The C family has many > problems, > it's known since the 80=E2=80=99s. > > But an alternative must be stable enough to be included with the base > system. And recent > languages change way too much. And some changes are more aesthetic than > useful, which > in my opinion doesn=E2=80=99t justify breaking stuff. > > Memory safety is critical, it=E2=80=99s been way too long with buffer ove= rflows and > other nonsense that should not happen in a high level language, but > developer sanity > is also mandatory. Languages evolve, but there=E2=80=99s no need to evolv= e them > yearly. > > > > > > Borja. > > > --000000000000bf689206223df42f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correct take.=C2=A0 Rust is clearly not a mature ecosyste= m suitable to be an Operating System platform, commercial or otherwise.

Yes DARPA is funding it, li= ke it funds bioterrorism. It=E2=80=99s not the same organization is was 30 = years ago.

On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 10:54=E2=80=AFAM Borja Marcos <<= a href=3D"mailto:borjam@sarenet.es">borjam@sarenet.es> wrote:


> On 16 Sep 2024, at 15:57, Kim Shrier <kim@westryn.net> wrote:
> I have stayed out of this conversation so far but I agree with Peter.<= br> > I compile all my kernels and ports from source.=C2=A0 I make local pat= ches
> when needed.=C2=A0 And while I have had some of my patshes accepted > into the FreeBSD source, I am not a committer.

One of the outstanding advantages of FreeBSD versus the avian alternative i= s
the ports system.

There are many ports with meaningful compile time options. Typical conversa= tion
with an avian user: =E2=80=9COk, to make this work you need to tweak this c= ompile time
option and compile=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 and the answer is usually =E2=80=9Cwh= aaat? I don=C2=B4t see that in the
repo, can=E2=80=99t do=E2=80=9D.

> I have dabbled with rust, several times and I don=E2=80=99t like it.= =C2=A0 It reminds
> me too much of C++ and I have never liked that language.=C2=A0 These > languages appear to introduce too much complexity and their
> runtime libraries change too much over time.

I agree with you regarding the runtime changes. The C family has many probl= ems,
it's known since the 80=E2=80=99s.

But an alternative must be stable enough to be included with the base syste= m. And recent
languages change way too much. And some changes are more aesthetic than use= ful, which
in my opinion doesn=E2=80=99t justify breaking stuff.

Memory safety is critical, it=E2=80=99s been way too long with buffer overf= lows and
other nonsense that should not happen in a high level language, but develop= er sanity
is also mandatory. Languages evolve, but there=E2=80=99s no need to evolve = them yearly.





Borja.


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