From nobody Thu Sep 05 20:20:23 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4X09hr4S4tz5TqKj for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2024 20:20:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from christos@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R10" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4X09hr2z0Kz4lRy; Thu, 5 Sep 2024 20:20:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from christos@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1725567628; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Li+XrZyN/H4GrbzZYAAT9hYw0V88vZAAWqrlgbA9aKY=; b=qZy5CiDc5Fg1Svq4vzkw9OzNjXLT1vs4uCJfqRaSvoQWVOtys2AR1sKkLNTAoVs8npCE2M 7rK1ycewpywWFgwVVZZtywNZXH+A6U54A9f++6izda2xGdRkmrL/7GiT0elR/PH7O7y7gl 2pjHRpNDyhtcQft44rJ7MJYrQvIFAnQhSZOpP5Vsszl3fe/p9L3aZtebx4LcwJwjy+/yW5 OZhDU9d5pIwLv8lHG9Wy6V32PtA+GJHmMF/EeBlEP8jT08v4rpr+VCq2rgUdHcEE57M1FM M9Xt9ow9p8meBRw7jYgEf+ejllxc4GPHbCq5dtmfmOBk6Q87XFVqlOHwM36zGA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1725567628; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=lUX/WTKjE+d3ychQBdqaOehRgE7TMxOyKWypzH3s34s5W/jKSr444QVes3G8r2NbEUJCIz nqusLaJW6gjyuFn9gsHt7Dt1/rx9mz2u5G7wDFXvSTH1mMRFYwRGnpHTexO521PZkdmk3K dCtdJDc6QmfvJPfGbB0CbI2/ihyHyP0Fbx6/AYL8TP/B4Y3qDn1Cr9G2YUAHece/OxYEo8 yZt3i4OM/2rlcSuUEME8XCrFZHGcGJFkP2/F3ylNvGleYSuZONpYX/Z3Bun3aUU0ILqV7F OLJrIR5KlJGYEwLid1ftbm53LI2yYOFHIDFxr19wnUwcZjjQBabHvd90E1GRrw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1725567628; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:dkim-signature; bh=Li+XrZyN/H4GrbzZYAAT9hYw0V88vZAAWqrlgbA9aKY=; b=FmhR8ugAYDtOJqtvKNT+gmSs98pBnZ9xE6uhrhpVid5EcpTdiZl7Xmji4MLd6pKW1rXOD9 SEeZzfNvHW7TmiDBvFo50s83mlFKiO3PtcOPYL6jpGFdP/xJdqJhrlBMus0om28KvlZkaB 28PKhO3hgiVyER/cuTvJB9oVEUknNb6jrHgCbio9VXAPkBb5HPwWaq0n3zVQlTRimzuQ4a BonVsXItpM63GVNV9sNjqzxVA10+68zo0nIWtWr8RSvPf3a6k2GT2FTsFQsrsgEDrZlnh5 x9AbBXai1lLcP5ZLQ2QG6ugwtdtG1NNOm1+uHpjTFC1SxVrNGpcrnJGLBuy1dA== Received: from margiolis.net (mail.margiolis.net [95.179.159.8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA512) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: christos/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4X09hq6pPRz1HZ5; Thu, 5 Sep 2024 20:20:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from christos@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; s=mail; bh=OZgeaB1wIogQpHc 2UnfkxuHrUfKlvBhqUOcJz4eFUaY=; h=in-reply-to:references:subject:cc:to: from:date; d=margiolis.net; b=hMBgk4/iBGfPRi0YW+228SnmhnOhshQcHUYF29xH fxhHcBc4z7pBqIFqFpNr3lanr8+YKZ1ugZqHuD4mDydDaaXiChQQpC06/kyBCnudqHNuVt nJ95uXnnDFfc7FRcQ84BKJhckJL93tFRyhi2pTMmXFTHwOt0urr5UQ7yCOOn0= Received: from tpad (31-217-173-192.cgn.acro.cosmote.net [31.217.173.192]) by margiolis.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id df6cf140 (TLSv1.3:AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO); Thu, 5 Sep 2024 20:20:25 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2024 23:20:23 +0300 From: Christos Margiolis To: Warner Losh Cc: Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in any system) Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Sep 5, 2024 at 12:10 PM Alan Somers wrote: > > > By now I expect that most of you have seen the long list of new > > security advisories that just came out. Strikingly, all were the > > result of memory handling errors. And none of them wouldn't have > > happened if their respective programs had been written in a > > memory-safe language. > > > > FreeBSD represents hundreds of thousands or millions of man hours > in its current form (depending on how you measure it). It has evolved > over 30 years. To get to the same level of maturity in a rust rewrite would > take a similar amount of time. But even if it took an order of magnitude > less because rust is that much better, that represents a huge pool of > manpower that don't seem to be hanging out around the project just > waiting for something to do. > > Where do the resources for this come from? Without enough resources, > the rewrites will be crap and nobody will want to use them (or maybe even > FreeBSD). The rewrites to date have lost functionality (though maybe not > functionality that's important) relative to what they replace. > > So great, we should switch to rust. But so far we have no way to do that > incrementally (other than a parallel build system, which isn't very > FreeBSDish). > And if we can't even find the resources to do that minimal level of work, > how > can the rest possibly be robustly undertaken? I second that. Christos