From nobody Thu Jun 13 13:54:47 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0P6s6Wmcz5NjLm for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 13:55:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0P6s4XtZz4CBB for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 13:55:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c1a4192d55so875062a91.2 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 06:55:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718286899; x=1718891699; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jL1ivuMV8NEVJi4ZDKBWiiITWaN1PxTPEN8ZcTXjXiY=; b=Oos/hjzXcPMO9R0Hjs5hS1fdexDZXdCsPj6yZBPKnb7wOJguEW50ChU3t4aw/8DeH/ X2ANbzcAJY10H90tVgnMxcxEzGEaf6WKnFpuOSsZow9DVh+z8xvrT/XAgj88SzASaQf5 69gVhOagENjgVGGOFUYkSh1+qyFqG9ExMZqxf3TlvCWrtPZEIgc0Zury8K1/5KiCu28N iy/7iX5A82PEHJMV0OHAb4Vk/RpABWJC1rDacp1pQ5ZKyxE9lYvKZNkxSuOM9r/3pwpY 0bCFlIcBKldvAFLdLZeRqeZgmife6/PwTqO+trqZ3umHVQ4OTNo7BbfZzRRf3RfkEsY6 T7Ig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718286899; x=1718891699; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=jL1ivuMV8NEVJi4ZDKBWiiITWaN1PxTPEN8ZcTXjXiY=; b=hk9w8MDkGIiqqMw0Vbf2p8yu1siMAYS0mQtoiVbtiulA7OdjNFA0JIGyUQyZjHLo+K E2s78DMg1rj0UiUPXDWb5wqwNQcwehn7EyzCIAi0V6av6KDUK7sztYqY94Zb5v6wUr/H yfM9NPNMGvX7cxNl5OxnxCySyMsb/creZwTgkh6v4wD9MYtn5SXnCtn23lcLu1xEt3ij QMXGmDdVVML4wz8kZkkAzHF9IGIB38bHILotRtFdPufMo5u2ETq1L6h8IXBeRKgKgVuC PeHgqejdHEpxCPyN9VdB38AtZa9y2lHMud3BcV8O4/4xNCjrR0yGSnC9bBBxy1uN0ALs nLjQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWVIYjab7i+5bq8XedurKAESb16F7VAvGevzU3q8s03MRVxs2/oQfG7GYg9r34S8xsVINF440+XE8JmuGQ6veUzFQp9EoFL24iyOWs= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwSRde9JM0uID+2IWxxmFENLEAAGgikuczSOoMlPw8a4pmgXP91 r68hVBfPSh65VE6wew/jgI5KBpsBJoNsaq6NOWFkbzqop6rOANwgEgpppU6I/YvCMT9xk7ffsHu 516oAEBcFiOScrl7aJn5tc9oPdpWlEMOfdFu1qg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFuajjhfu8oq/BgU/3SZESZJXjfre/ivg43nn7JY5qRRjqQSNkcdlqWnsWUZI4J4B3+3m2Kj2oAMm9XSxSUaN8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d496:b0:2c2:fed1:769f with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c4a7629891mr4795320a91.13.1718286899444; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 06:54:59 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:54:47 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Ed Maste , Bertrand Petit , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000439877061ac5d8ca" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0P6s4XtZz4CBB --000000000000439877061ac5d8ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 7:51=E2=80=AFAM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users"= . > > > > It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not much value > > in asking the question. > > > > > I agree > > > it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect > obvious > > > so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking > for a UTC > > > or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices > would be > > > presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effec= t > of > > > UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock= . > The > > > task of the user is to select the option matching any external > reference he > > > sees fit. > > > > This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a > > timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer > > prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it > > was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't > > really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or > > local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants > > the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time. > > You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without > the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value. > If you ask timezone first, you could ask the use if thise times are right. But if rtc is afu this won't help so you need a plan for that. Warner Please try to make things better, not just less confusing. > > > -- > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org > > --000000000000439877061ac5d8ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 7:51=E2=80=AFAM Rodney W. Grimes= <freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dn= smgr.net> wrote:
> On Wed= , 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit
> <freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is sad to see an option remov= ed because "it confuse users".
>
> It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not = much value
> in asking the question.
>
> > I agree
> > it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option'= s effect obvious
> > so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of aski= ng for a UTC
> > or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead.= Two choices would be
> > presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the e= ffect of
> > UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wa= ll clock. The
> > task of the user is to select the option matching any external re= ference he
> > sees fit.
>
> This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a
> timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer
> prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter wha= t it
> was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn'= t
> really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or
> local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants=
> the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time.

You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value.

If you ask timez= one first, you could ask the use if thise times are right. But if rtc is af= u this won't help so you need a plan for that.
<= br>
Warner=C2=A0


Please try to make things better, not just less confusing.


--
Rod Grimes=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rgrimes@freebsd.org

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