From nobody Thu May 11 20:17:07 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QHNVc6B9kz49yMV for ; Thu, 11 May 2023 20:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QHNVc3jVjz3t1X for ; Thu, 11 May 2023 20:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-b9a824c3a95so11448191276.1 for ; Thu, 11 May 2023 13:17:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1683836263; x=1686428263; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=p28+Vy/yTZwSfwX+7w8AcpyPYZ1TkWLEF0uwlYtL1RE=; b=NyCD+r6r/UiVrFlWI95nrRjOUn2aP8w6z+stV+lX9xlCsPJnDW8DtOVZP2PP/cBv8g lhJiG9FL45MruR0vm/4utwUWvsAEzu7PtJ2nMqAbAcAfyA8EB98jSt0iUo2pskjGPkSs IK7CxTqEGAOLMWGLTLLKSsPwDmbaiCLttbvb4MoPY5Jf1SHr3ARJzuS5obBnhHvLp1M7 DLNZaUqGqVgoO2FroPutVHZL9gA37bZBoFEhwVCCnDeV4zIiKzxfV+vpfdkYtupHti6M TNmFwo6nP5b51MG3p4/UHOqTLd8UbdMXsUFeespauRmD3yrXNwI1d7gaYNVAZ7DUANLc Z6ww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1683836263; x=1686428263; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=p28+Vy/yTZwSfwX+7w8AcpyPYZ1TkWLEF0uwlYtL1RE=; b=ktcbGQ6j5I20sLPE1OZHll80fqoQ7PwZ6sWbPEqBb+H/2jlKmYyye+T9UJPJXBs+9/ JG1DEWfp0dUnl214/tRi2xEqi8s2dnj3ZvaOBGklsZPhR7/skxjXxGKy0kYxlzOFDfKX HFZaWpbZorbQcAGZwr8nLhrtF+gLiIIZrbnuOfbkxExKG49aHXatjUNPOmnoXL52UZEz AzJ1NprVMiblVgqndVZ6hpqokVs2Sco0IbEIt/oAf7ami4hwxHlMobNQGEkJ/vI7Lf46 9nCRZmiqj8Ej2EaLcNyENdJkfBj4wLwWuHMa2X+3uy8p+cT4NP4UIO8RfaaHYFLWdo8B YIzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDzs9OTeDRZcI1KU28xUMoOFXQsQXcWGbYnV00VCMC0maJvvWqPx 9zX8scfdQTVhKK4xT9KRvcz6SHErUosoDf0N7iI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ6FqQr5OBfetIkLSc7JC4UkaXRJ/xuGpCPIZH7pQbNRagGB2tbkL3qIXfNloNvhkOUDn6BQsO9tFyOOHaCnAXw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:18c7:b0:b99:75f:8f24 with SMTP id ck7-20020a05690218c700b00b99075f8f24mr28713641ybb.30.1683836263292; Thu, 11 May 2023 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2di-5CLwOl4O8QoL8_3DedJ_XaQVG2u_-w_9f8grWleHQP3QDXtes8Sk5fOhWwVU4e3HgvbwbixEiatP-6_4HZ7ZQQFAMbzjeKZSviEGEpg=@lorenzosalvadore.it> In-Reply-To: <2di-5CLwOl4O8QoL8_3DedJ_XaQVG2u_-w_9f8grWleHQP3QDXtes8Sk5fOhWwVU4e3HgvbwbixEiatP-6_4HZ7ZQQFAMbzjeKZSviEGEpg=@lorenzosalvadore.it> From: Mario Marietto Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 22:17:07 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd on an ebook ereader ? To: Lorenzo Salvadore Cc: Tomek CEDRO , Warner Losh , freebsd-hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005562fb05fb70ae56" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QHNVc3jVjz3t1X X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000005562fb05fb70ae56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----> Actually, many companies love the BSD license. The fact that it is more open than the GPL allows them to keep their sources closed. And please remember that many developers and contributors to FreeBSD are just volunteers and do not need any money to make things happen. I am a volunteer for example, I do not get any money, I am here only for the fun and for the opportunity to learn things and share my work. So money is not necessarily needed to have FreeBSD running on a phone: someone (maybe you?) might do it just for fun and share it. This is one of the great things about open source. From your words everything on FreeBSD seems to be perfect. Everything works fine and natural. If it is so perfect,why are companies pushing Linux into the market more and more,even in the most difficult area,the little devices area,and they are not pushing FreeBSD ? FreeBSD license is better. Every project in FreeBSD can be done from one day to another one,but the development of Linux goes faster,a lot of drivers are created,more devices come out with Linux and so on. Man,I would also think that in the FreeBSD world everything is fine like you say,but to me it does not seem to be true. Probably something is not working well and Linux beats FreeBSD in some areas. We should focus our attention on this point,to understand how to improve it. Maybe the first cause is the license. Maybe the people,companies and so on think that the freedom given by the license gives them a high dose of uncertainty and they don't put money there. Because if companies put some money to do what they want because they have the freedom to do it,it is also true that the developers have the same freedom and they can do whatever they want,too. There are two proverbs that people say here where I live. 1) too much always chokes. 2) Who wants too much, nothing squeezes. ---> If I remember correctly, Android is Linux based. I would not define Linux "not ready for the mobile market". In my humble opinion Android is not Linux. The only component they share is the kernel. But not so much because Google makes their own patches and not every Linux patch is adopted by Google. This approach goes on for years. The kernel has been patched so many times by Google in a way that Linux developers don't like. Android does not use the Linux kernel anymore. It uses the Android kernel. I think that it became something different. --> I understand that you do not like Android (I do not either, although I have to use it... I wonder however why you do not like Android but you use a gmail address. I have an old mobile phone powered by Android. But only because I don't have the money to buy the pinephone. I will change the first with the second in a short amount of time if I could. This is even more true if I could buy or help developers to create a FreeBSD powered phone. Infact I'm loving FreeBSD more than Linux actually,for many reasons. I don't do anything because I have to. I'm retired from work. I do something or because I like it or because I didn't find the alternative I want or for habit. And habits don't go away that easily,even if you would. ---> or GrapheneOS (according to https://grapheneos.org/faq#upstream) GrapheneOS is a private and secure mobile operating system with great functionality and usability. It starts from the strong baseline of the Andr= oid Open Source Project (AOSP) : I'm not interested in an OS so hardly based on Android. ---> If what you want is to have a shell on your phone, there is the Termux= . no. what I want is to hack an old phone or tablet,unlock the bootloader and use some techniques or ways that I don't know (maybe adapting the source code of those drivers) to make them supported by FreeBSD and I want to install FreeBSD there. On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 9:39=E2=80=AFPM Lorenzo Salvadore < developer@lorenzosalvadore.it> wrote: > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Thursday, May 11th, 2023 at 8:46 PM, Mario Marietto < > marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote: > > > How do you plan to come back with the money needed to adapt FreeBSD to > make it work on an old phone if the FreeBSD code is based on a license > that's even more open than the GPL ? Where will you get the money to > develop it ? > > Actually, many companies love the BSD license. The fact that it is more > open than the GPL allow them to > keep their sources closed. > > See this article for more information on the topic: > https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/bsdl-gpl/ > > I have also translated it in Italian some years ago (the translation > could likely be improved, but it is better than nothing): > https://docs.freebsd.org/it/articles/bsdl-gpl/ > > Many companies use FreeBSD, see: > https://freebsdfoundation.org/freebsd-project/what-is-freebsd/ > > They also often contribute to FreeBSD, either by sponsoring developers > and projects, by upstreaming their own patches, or by donating: > https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2023-01-2023-03/#_freebsd_foundatio= n > > And please remember that many developers and contributors to FreeBSD > are just volunteers and do not need any money to make things happen. > I am a volunteer for example, I do not get any money, I am here only > for the fun and for the opportunity to learn things and share my work. > So money is not necessarly needed to have FreeBSD running on a phone: > someone (maybe you?) might do it just for the fun and share it. > This is one of great things of open source. > > > ---> People are interested only in things that work out of the box. > > > > > > it's not totally true. During the years Linux became more and more > popular even if,at the beginning,it didn't work out of the box. It only > means that it needs more time to be accessible,due to the fact that it is > technically more advanced than Windows. Today Linux is not ready for the > mobile market,yet. But it will be. This is happening. > > If I remember correctly, Android is Linux based. I would not define > Linux "not ready for the mobile market". > > I understand that you do not like Android (I do not either, although > I have to use it... I wonder however why you do not like Android but you > use a gmail address). You might like other things such as the PinePhone > (again, Linux based) or GrapheneOS (according to > https://grapheneos.org/faq#upstream it contributed to Linux and OpenBSD). > If what you want is a to have a shell on your phone, there is the Termux > app (open source). > Not sure if those help you with the project you have in mind however. > > Cheers, > > Lorenzo Salvadore > --=20 Mario. --0000000000005562fb05fb70ae56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----> Actually, many companies love the BSD licens= e. The fact that it is more open than the GPL allows them to
keep their sources closed. And please remember that many developers and con= tributors to FreeBSD are just volunteers and do not need any money to make = things happen. I am a volunteer for example, I do not get any money, I am here only for th= e fun and for the opportunity to learn things and share my work. So money i= s not necessarily needed to have FreeBSD running on a phone: someone (maybe= you?) might do it just for fun and share it. This is one of the great things about open source.

From your words everything on FreeBSD seems to be perfect. Everything work= s fine and natural. If it is so perfect,why are companies pushing Linux int= o the market more and more,even in the most difficult area,the little devic= es area,and they are not pushing FreeBSD ? FreeBSD license is better. Every= project in FreeBSD can be done from one day to another one,but the develop= ment of Linux goes faster,a lot of drivers are created,more devices come ou= t with Linux and so on. Man,I would also think that in the FreeBSD world ev= erything is fine like you say,but to me it does not seem to be true. Probab= ly something is not working well and Linux beats FreeBSD in some areas. We = should focus our attention on this point,to understand how to improve it. M= aybe the first cause is the license. Maybe the people,companies and so on t= hink that the freedom given by the license gives them a high dose of uncert= ainty and they don't put money there. Because if companies put some mon= ey to do what they want because they have the freedom to do it,it is also t= rue that the developers have the same freedom and they can do whatever they= want,too. There are two proverbs = that people say here where I live. 1) too much always chokes. 2) Who wants = too much, nothing squeezes.

---> If I r= emember correctly, Android is Linux based. I would not define Linux "n= ot ready for the mobile market".

In my humble= opinion Android is not Linux. The only component they share is the kernel.= But not so much because Google makes their own patches and not every Linux= patch is adopted by Google. This approach goes on for years. The kernel ha= s been patched so many times by Google in a way that Linux developers don&#= 39;t like. Android does not use the Linux kernel anymore. It uses the Andro= id kernel. I think that it became something different.

=
--> I understand that you do not like Android (I do not either, alt= hough I have to use it... I wonder however why you do not like Android but = you use a gmail address.

I have an old mobile phone po= wered by Android. But only because I don't have the money to buy the pi= nephone. I will change the first with the second in a short amount of time = if I could. This is even more true if I could buy or help developers to cre= ate a FreeBSD powered phone. Infact I'm loving FreeBSD more than Linux = actually,for many reasons. I don't do anything because I have to. I'= ;m retired from work. I do something or because I like it or because I didn= 't find the alternative I want or for habit. And habits don't go away that easily,even if you would. =

<= /div>
---> or GrapheneOS (according to https://grapheneos.org/faq#upstream)

GrapheneOS is a private and secure mobile operating system with great=20 functionality and usability. It starts from the strong baseline of the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) = : I'm not interested in an OS so hardly based on Android.

---> If what you want is to have a shell on your phone,= there is the Termux.

no. what I want is to hack a= n old phone or tablet,unlock the bootloader and use some techniques or ways= that I don't know (maybe adapting the source code of those drivers) to= make them supported by FreeBSD and I want to install FreeBSD there.=C2=A0 =

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 9:39=E2=80=AFPM Lorenzo Salvad= ore <developer@lorenzos= alvadore.it> wrote:



------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, May 11th, 2023 at 8:46 PM, Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> = wrote:

> How do you plan to come back with the money needed to adapt FreeBSD to= make it work on an old phone if the FreeBSD code is based on a license tha= t's even more open than the GPL ? Where will you get the money to devel= op it ?

Actually, many companies love the BSD license. The fact that it is more ope= n than the GPL allow them to
keep their sources closed.

See this article for more information on the topic:
https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/bsdl-gpl/

I have also translated it in Italian some years ago (the translation
could likely be improved, but it is better than nothing):
https://docs.freebsd.org/it/articles/bsdl-gpl/

Many companies use FreeBSD, see:
https://freebsdfoundation.org/freebsd-= project/what-is-freebsd/

They also often contribute to FreeBSD, either by sponsoring developers
and projects, by upstreaming their own patches, or by donating:
https://www.freebsd.org/st= atus/report-2023-01-2023-03/#_freebsd_foundation

And please remember that many developers and contributors to FreeBSD
are just volunteers and do not need any money to make things happen.
I am a volunteer for example, I do not get any money, I am here only
for the fun and for the opportunity to learn things and share my work.
So money is not necessarly needed to have FreeBSD running on a phone:
someone (maybe you?) might do it just for the fun and share it.
This is one of great things of open source.

> ---> People are interested only in things that work out of the box.=
>
>
> it's not totally true. During the years Linux became more and more= popular even if,at the beginning,it didn't work out of the box. It onl= y means that it needs more time to be accessible,due to the fact that it is= technically more advanced than Windows. Today Linux is not ready for the m= obile market,yet. But it will be. This is happening.

If I remember correctly, Android is Linux based. I would not define
Linux "not ready for the mobile market".

I understand that you do not like Android (I do not either, although
I have to use it... I wonder however why you do not like Android but you use a gmail address). You might like other things such as the PinePhone
(again, Linux based) or GrapheneOS (according to
https://grapheneos.org/faq#upstream it contributed to Linux= and OpenBSD).
If what you want is a to have a shell on your phone, there is the Termux app (open source).
Not sure if those help you with the project you have in mind however.

Cheers,

Lorenzo Salvadore


--
Mario.
--0000000000005562fb05fb70ae56--