From nobody Thu Feb 09 20:14:07 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PCSkT5MbJz3nZsm for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 20:14:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PCSkT4rnVz3skq; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 20:14:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1675973649; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=YGkETsO/J4J6CwxwAZqX4psHr0rK4whm/B0g+B7uNHo=; b=f09maRmPTMSEGYWBHNestZSzd1omaBmkNCmMf03ovAMpYmoQUj+SRnHtr9t4LHz3bsUdoo JjsL7px4gBvMj7sbd+Mcju9SD259RiYJmWCmaHg+LiQWWaxDZIb/dW6f70dkfyZGEgoLHj 0R6LA0Ae8MgA/Emnf1vrOQsIht6dTxaKbjfGBbBvn923K+rXgcxUhDKTG79EQQEOSjkUIK cuBKtaNkns38DXNKjgmuwYOMgygrAx7TyVMd+NGlFbXeiP7vJSv8cTO1gOyoV1nwDbsB3i WhnHo/wNP90s1dBmu7MzYMxnszO2+CRNELFD3WuQApe4Hfodz4CZQlTbQIhaFQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1675973649; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=YGkETsO/J4J6CwxwAZqX4psHr0rK4whm/B0g+B7uNHo=; b=mBfC6Eq9niqsdJbgorrTmKrz/RczqXTAzyttPHBgn3ZEfMoCYUG4sK8fLUViT/2P5Pp8nU r9jhm/8jNaVBRrDqo3MPSMciMTj3ZwlSnFfVxDjmPYD9rKCw4DL9c/ncCNP1Fq+gnCrpaY g02jn3I5MPY5CynxeQHS4ucsXlAa3lIf2EHhUSG68dbzUiQa50h8cSRYuYuoej4vy9xMpA k06KDvKlhu/7BUION3ymvb1EHdO0HFrTsWDNfd5tubOm/dCRFJZoGsKjzRMpbipYA0C2re if6xM2qZaY0lNVJLo+k/F7ZOz2YfsUw8ebo5PGUypTvhr+C8bqcTj8RZ+p0dkg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1675973649; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=hMApcyHKVnO8ylAJHs8c3nLWa+Xoc9qcEL4kPe0qLg+yWknb5+mI5DatxRH9M2kxoXNrTh eGANFdUTakrZu5bO9Zhn0NSma+nPqbsYyJU6UIPukMecEMQGHKLnh0LHdAHOEadKaSRCr+ cTY6qonX9BBGDzSA9TkZwg6kkGtHAuZ0ZzotCES/bueSkBrqOvLwbbFSJ9rm1X7IhF8Kei TVeFHMVhfN339Cb5AQKjyKCvc2+sELBdxtHfS7VzrQ/FdDo+D12wxjOOC3MAzRP2EwaPrf RbF4CB+bO8ovBet6W5M4+d5kKlPDdcnKF5BRWlhEuqI9b6SzRg6CvMk2PTjbIQ== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4PCSkT3n30zWPZ; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 20:14:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host81-158-36-31.range81-158.btcentralplus.com [81.158.36.31]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CAA161058B; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 20:14:08 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Subject: Re: CFT: snmalloc as libc malloc From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 20:14:07 +0000 Cc: Mateusz Guzik , freebsd-hackers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2f3dcda0-5135-290a-2dff-683b2e9fe271@FreeBSD.org> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 9 Feb 2023, at 19:46, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > And that is why we can't just start using submodules. They are not = automatically used. They are not used automatically, but if we were using them then we would = have infrastructure in the build system for ensuring that they exist and = checking them out if they are not. =20 I have written some (trivial) scripts to do this in a dev container = recently for another project, the developer experience there is go to = github, hit ., hit =E2=80=98open in code space=E2=80=99, start writing = code in the browser. =20 I didn=E2=80=99t do something like that here because I didn't want this = tree to contain things that I definitely couldn=E2=80=99t upstream and = you=E2=80=99ve made it quite clear that upstreaming will require me to = do something different. > People have to do different things that need to be publicized and well = documented. As with anything involving revision control. > And there are about a half a dozen decisions that need to be made = about the details of their use, many of which have no clear obvious = choice for the project. Without a good plan, clear comms and good docs = it will be a support nightmare.=20 Something I would be happy to work on, but the message that I = consistently get is =E2=80=98we won=E2=80=99t use submodules, we are not = open to a plan to use submodules=E2=80=99. > Now please stop making these passive agressive comments about = submodules. All they do is demotivate me to work on the plans to adopt = them. There are a lot of details, many of which need to be play tested, = before we can even get a plan to adopt. The snarky comments are why I = quit working on things a year ago... they don't move the ball forward = and just piss people off... I will very happily stop making comments about submodules if there is = either: - A working group that I can participate in to propose a plan for using = them. Or even a willingness, if I write a plan for using submodules, = for it to be discussed and not rejected out of hand. - An alternative proposal that doesn=E2=80=99t have the downsides that = we currently have (for example, forcing everyone to duplicate the = history of all every LLVM version that FreeBSD ships in a git clone, = difficulty of CI testing contrib components in isolation, complex steps = to import a new version from upstream, and so on), or worse down-sides = than submodules (e.g. depending on additional tooling that doesn=E2=80=99t= integrate with other tools, impossibility of using the tooling on some = platforms, massive clone sizes, and so on) I am frustrated by the fact that the project has real problems that can = be solved by submodules, does not want to use them, and does not want to = solve them in another way either. I don=E2=80=99t particularly like = submodules, I just like the problems that are caused by not using them = even less. David