From nobody Thu Jun 23 15:44:28 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28EC85B895 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:44:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe31.google.com (mail-vs1-xe31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4LTPh84HqTz4vJn for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:44:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe31.google.com with SMTP id o13so8478111vsn.4 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:44:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0NAhNfggj+TGn/63CD98L2uSpLVerOlBcGzeQQFoayY=; b=hKjz56iR4x8b9EU/NtRobVpTQnVn4pnLF8gmN/DQMkSZKwu5Jctw2NPpeem8V9LiGj Nfg3dKWkPh+hADu5Plba92/JEcc6iDKu8Bt5f33uvapWbCJgzIsJA71PdUZQROkkRR8h OuHRuQV0uvZkFDcn7wqlmDXnkYZKt7ryeYcuO/T2PaI5aNtMxhKFmPoQ8rJSJwt6lQmJ JxNr7y5Ja2vdDlUHQvQ1BPChvDycsndOSQ0PMGiXNj0QNltjImpirkb2rHq7k6tflw2R zmfzWtZe7SD0CgNxd8VLdfIrFffdxtK1Xraznuj1/FkTiqn7a42DjMVIUboeGtdjRBJZ NmTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0NAhNfggj+TGn/63CD98L2uSpLVerOlBcGzeQQFoayY=; b=4BFnmmIVqMoJcSbnVihp0jZ5cDLVfSDNIfdnFLqMWCUTg0Uu5MuqeOMbKQNPzsCfmX ADbPADemp7OuaH2FpZvCD1bQhX27aBjnY36DBQr4giCFNP3qMz0bR3/oU6WHPjXrJjls sii4S+S4M+9ejMtDi12xZ3Zmvajl1JRPEaQT6DBnsIFfVR28VASsuY303cXf0clh0HD/ aRMzlvyeTO+5kw0xDsxIGu3P3sxmGCuZnYF+9bQo1LSQtPr4eTVUta05a7AJRzjYtVfu R7vr4Qudn+I9bKMxWFjzqzvWHUwWDMd5PlnEp5ePGm6nldQNBL/wNNhJwesSa6oB2hDs 4D5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+sodaoCOGeRXkbfyZEeA0BrLbhJzIQiCxZfZpD/LD9fjOJnMqC mbK7E2Dg0412NDoWU7yh6cOuQVcOKXa68Oaf+NRdgA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1vA3TtaV1tGsuXfWLFI5RK9zm0oWotpI5eddLe/Zx7WxWGJvJPLVQd3Vry+4/RC6u/tLSukUeBZvezgTD9kBAc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fbd3:0:b0:354:2f5b:6477 with SMTP id o19-20020a67fbd3000000b003542f5b6477mr10724480vsr.76.1655999079879; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:44:39 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211126160454.3eb827365a02103169ab9adc@bidouilliste.com> <20220621201924.e9b96876c947140ac1f3b7a4@bidouilliste.com> <3d09c86a-9840-f8bf-4725-8098d958a01d@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> <202206211901.25LJ1uBd067376@critter.freebsd.dk> <20220622044923.6e2fac81c1e8205872d9de11@bidouilliste.com> <6b7997d6-f8ed-c4e4-91eb-da9b20eb0a14@grosbein.net> <8d6ae56e-9265-6b2e-c966-1c51f00f6c88@grosbein.net> In-Reply-To: <8d6ae56e-9265-6b2e-c966-1c51f00f6c88@grosbein.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:44:28 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Reasons for keeping sc(4) and libvgl ? To: Eugene Grosbein Cc: Steve Kargl , Stefan Blachmann , Emmanuel Vadot , Ed Maste , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e7a8dc05e21f54df" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4LTPh84HqTz4vJn X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.s=20210112 header.b=hKjz56iR; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e31) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.98 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.983]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:s=20210112]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::e31:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[troutmask.apl.washington.edu,gmail.com,bidouilliste.com,freebsd.org,phk.freebsd.dk] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000e7a8dc05e21f54df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:37 AM Eugene Grosbein wrote: > 23.06.2022 22:26, Warner Losh wrote: > > > Giant is being removed entirely, and with it all straggler drivers that > aren't converted by the removal date. > > There's no fixed date for this, at the present time, but I'm about to > commit changes that make it impossible > > for new code to reference Giant. Having Giant, at all, causes slow downs > elsewhere in the system, which > > is why we're pushing to remove it entirely. > > Why is it better to lose working code then to keep it "slow"? > Supporting Giant, at all, means creating extra taskqueues, processes, etc. It means extra checks in all the code paths since Giant is so 'special'. To do this just to support an obsolete console seems to many to be an unwise tradeoff once everything else is in order. Especially since there have been years for people that care about the problems to arrange solutions. We are still some time away from everything else eliminating Giant, so there's still time to get things fixed. However, the increasingly obscure nature of the problems and/or their diminished relevancy to the project means that absent code showing up (either from the hobbyist community or from funded work), the problems will remain because the limited resources of those working on the project aren't ample enough for them to be solved. If they are important to you, and nobody else is working on them, now is your chance. Ideally, there'd be enough time and people to solve all the problems, but there is not. Warner --000000000000e7a8dc05e21f54df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:37 AM Eugen= e Grosbein <eugen@grosbein.net= > wrote:
23.0= 6.2022 22:26, Warner Losh wrote:

> Giant is being removed entirely, and with it all straggler drivers tha= t aren't converted by the removal date.
> There's no fixed date for this, at the present time, but I'm a= bout to commit changes that make it impossible
> for new code to reference Giant. Having Giant, at all, causes slow dow= ns elsewhere in the system, which
> is why we're pushing to remove it entirely.

Why is it better to lose working code then to keep it "slow"?
=

Supporting Giant, at all, means creating e= xtra taskqueues, processes, etc. It means extra checks in
all the= code paths since Giant is so 'special'. To do this just to support= an obsolete console seems to
many to be an unwise tradeoff once = everything else is in order. Especially since there have been years
for people that care about the problems to arrange solutions.
=
We are still some time away from everything else eliminating= Giant, so there's still time to get things
fixed. However, t= he increasingly obscure nature of the problems and/or their diminished rele= vancy
to the project means that absent code showing up (either fr= om the hobbyist community or from
funded work), the problems will= remain because the limited resources of those working on the
pro= ject aren't ample enough for them to be solved. If they are important t= o you, and nobody
else is working on them, now is your chance. Id= eally, there'd be enough time and people to
solve all the pro= blems, but there is not.

Warner
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