From nobody Thu Apr 14 07:44:52 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4170A1B42616 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 07:44:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markm@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KfBLw6ZcVz4sFt; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 07:44:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markm@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1649922297; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=JsTTPnldpT9A13aRc5qO2c9EtN77guX/RLqLk3n509s=; b=syM3c3z3x03ZplHm2OCRfH9/lSzIx21PmUduP62dzcNV4jXUrzsh/2088kS30absBO0OoP WK43D0TG+wr1sSBv6EX6XHyjDerqyvZ9Kw47CjROwqPuHTSywoF21BhX2x/kVtVRp1wnBh eq3aRw08rfOiJuqmD4FXcWhgraythNWH71eBdMyi0SOcLJXj1COs+DsiAzhhVczgKk04Kt OAvOeYGuUY6anoXUyqE/SlJ/BEhLp/72mBV8AOW2L+FizQ0GT7p5vUvyNeDFN4GSk8rpyK 0Ecs4/80EqatILsUQqLN9ujdIWjQHAP4BmT5mibbYk5mjpa8G9OP0DxKAQIZNw== Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a02:8011:300b:42:6d45:9ab7:84fc:23c3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: markm) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B03B45E03; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 07:44:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markm@FreeBSD.org) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6359A126-D024-4165-9FA6-475F44C3999E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [RFC] patch's default backup behavior From: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: <6c8a812f-438c-dfac-7ba8-b9ae6abf0840@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 08:44:52 +0100 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-Id: <973282F3-3AAD-469C-BF44-169C7C9F751A@FreeBSD.org> References: <202204111658.23BGwmcC073621@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <6c8a812f-438c-dfac-7ba8-b9ae6abf0840@FreeBSD.org> To: David Chisnall X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1649922297; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=JsTTPnldpT9A13aRc5qO2c9EtN77guX/RLqLk3n509s=; b=DeuIuEXXZnOb58M36PNbCNlLnqlXpGVglxazMmw1WDCSQUNBRn9QuzZ9DaMvtiSynHYhSv Km41MRbmtGElH9cbLCuze9PLfGtrGhCxmNtw9oPTM4SUUhOJsVdpn6hQW3JtYb9knrGpre 6ekHxKQzH4vBtq0NDto0cSWbs5RIMrqZsN5OF04MZ552/1UaQKcEU5TwTfxePdGb3IbFjs nNlkOo8Vy+xUku3Rcn0seWP23FpUXKDAXbgTTiarx7ecqemQcT6irpYEry+xMTgn4ggY+j WNl6CiCFMnSMEXUAMyYYJg4BdYirLqwvKzLgUdrBBuX1bpzFsTeE+XCxDw/uKQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1649922297; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=SpGmuzlbaWQSnKT32UGrSJfa/j4zVMMK2O+yckqs+KYwy1Cs5fOZGwpbeee5rcx68PUPrE KHFhyykKLImdqjNBPXy6HVo/2foSfLUnv6EzVYpA8dImMMl6vjlTaQOLnx4Dt2oUTna06D CeecdHmxkf/3P6GS0mSC+xu7guMZ66xKQuibnqgXjy9+RTzmiX/xAQ2dlFjr7YQNMcRL1B OcIOP4slLDnCNxPE8TmQepkEniL3LwYjEgQjBpA3mA4cl9OXabAJnFY+CXuV+b0Otjeyen 7AE/rIp9A1KvieoGhH+7Xlnjd72BfDBCn5MI1AEBWCoIi+RJtO7TiECMtFgPjA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --Apple-Mail=_6359A126-D024-4165-9FA6-475F44C3999E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank you David. Well said! M > On 12 Apr 2022, at 17:36, David Chisnall wrote: >=20 > On 11/04/2022 17:58, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> Personally, if YOU like the behavior of gnu patch, by all means, >> please USE gnu patch. Please do NOT make bsd patch behave in >> a different manner simply because you personally like that >> other behavior. >> If you want the stuff to look like Linux/GNU by all means, >> go RUN linux/gnu!!!! >=20 > There are two opinions that as almost invariably wrong, in any = context: >=20 > - Popular thing X does Y, therefore Y is good. > - Popular thing X does Y, therefore Y is bad. >=20 > This thread started with 'popular thing X does Y, we do Z, let's = evaluate which is better'. Reducing that to 'popular thing X does Y, = therefore we should do Z, if you want Y then you should run X' is = unhelpful. It is also how we end up in a situation where everyone runs = X and we sit around wondering where all of our users and contributors = went. >=20 > We should neither adopt or discard a particular behaviour in patch on = the basis that GNU patch does it. We should use the fact that GNU patch = does it to gather data on whether it's a desirable behaviour. We should = adopt their good ideas and avoid their bad ideas. >=20 > That is precisely the process that Kyle is trying to drive and the = FreeBSD system will be better as a result of his work. Personally, I = hate having .rej and .orig files scattered over my filesystem as a = result of patch failing and I end up having to write a `find` command to = delete them all. Does that mean that I want to give up kqueue, = capsicum, out-of-the-box ZFS, a sane /dev/dsp, jails, clang as the = system compiler, a `tar` that knows that `x` means 'extract the thing, = you don't need me to duplicate the information in the file header to = know what it is', and so on and run GNU/Linux? No. >=20 > I take Joerg's point that GNU patch *sometimes* creating them makes = tooling difficult. I would be quite happy with a solution that they are = created unconditionally with a flag to disable creating them (I would = then `alias patch=3D"patch --do-not-leave-stuff-on-my-filesystem"` in my = `.profile` and forget about it for interactive use) or that they are = never created with a flag to enable creating them, which I would never = pass except when working with bits of infrastructure that explicitly = want the .orig files. >=20 > David >=20 -- Mark R V Murray --Apple-Mail=_6359A126-D024-4165-9FA6-475F44C3999E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.2 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEyzPHvybPbOpU9MCxQlsJDh9CUqAFAmJX0PQACgkQQlsJDh9C UqBorgf+Kd7eR3zNIxyTmtmI1tYjUp6z9uTtVWBLfzjhHIXm+VvEqD8/oevkPHyS s49QX5z68z09i2H04KLb10we4EAKXWOfY5o4e8wkWTxc/FUiASEbqoU+RPMeWTaL tsSaKIDD6zGIoH2/VYTGC+aMK5eHgNNf1Uw2JJPyYIr6aKIOiIJkLEWHTO6Gy4mr HbHmdFxHnMLo3++co/PpagBpohkKbznL9XOz/70NaB9Qf7swkw9Zhg70pvgGibfI JmowuczJ7BcDUXTRxgTgC5YGEKNPK6nFrjcl5I9kCmUy+8HJUVckRQxlk2teaOpO xteAQ0LytxyH5XbkXLxZNu+auUysGg== =jzlY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6359A126-D024-4165-9FA6-475F44C3999E--