From nobody Fri Nov 26 18:02:39 2021 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD1518B25C0 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:02:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4J12ds6bFYz3H8c; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:02:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from aniel.nours.eu (nours.eu [176.31.115.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ABF3528D04; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:02:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by aniel.nours.eu (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9236852BC5; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 19:02:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 19:02:39 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Ed Maste , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Retiring WITHOUT_CXX Message-ID: <20211126180239.rwuaaq3onohjoywv@aniel.nours.eu> References: <202111261709.1AQH9sHg025507@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <202111261709.1AQH9sHg025507@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1637949761; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=phFrxVUMYGnb/SCwC7Kx78ANISFS+W6JCyZFxpLT7h4=; b=eWD0H01cR87l7uO0L492jqPsDqpf2d9Iw3gXO+QaprnyzaZgeauHDJWKr52s2yxp6nRaLC 9oHNmz2wLbk8iHmR0Pasvhh05hZ4wJD+vchMo5d/gp68JU89DmygYlE1YA35iLwbrKZN4s V1nTouB/7yfCsAQlqR6MecSVeMJPnl6VvcP4/36mHwjvU82swqkFxXsPU6UGEBrDtmJi7t Qz08l71HInkHcFQLBqbQrJmaPBGeXpjp99Vw6eAuD7htHSWZK+xYXHItlmWhVlsHiByyav zfvryZ+Y/0kI75lln8qFF0zcsqsHN35SSloAEKzk2Vks6IYYDZce+C2wVSRQIg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1637949761; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=a+fsWC3rT2onAG4kN0KkdBIQBKt+sgfWZq6YLYKqTSCfDnpwSD4gvDAS3fqddOZK5JXGuS Upj32O23Jph2in44jOqttLBRH9uZWotdYbZRuwladnkPdXCV3z5vtYnX28Z+sb8DNB8bz/ 2NQVhzkGX7PAF4tOZC2PxJ6m4C1XjPVfk41Vptbn9M9lNPFtQk/DDtlCAuaxVatPCzjtuC olv8WpfHqtdgW2gIXsAmLFdiRH/tjLmT8CyHFy/z0+XAhpoiaBa12uEZAjM0NL238doL2T IPzQtl37N/p0JdnREwA8NFijuvP87BzS2AfQ+BmGSGER9Om0XeWU+wzgqchDAg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 09:09:54AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 04:09, Rodney W. Grimes > > wrote: > > > > > > So is the feature model of FreeBSD becoming, oh it gets broken > > > cause it is not regularly tested, so lets remove that feature. > > > > I don't agree with that. We have a large and growing CI infrastructure > > to regularly test functionality and are continually adding to it over > > time. But it's important to test and maintain what is actually used > > and is useful. Disabling C++ support made sense when obrien@ added the > > original knob in 2000, but it makes less sense today when parts of > > FreeBSD are written in C++. > > > > You can disagree with my assertion, but I shall continue to assert > that it *seems* as if rather than adding B O S to the CI such that > it is not only regularly tested, but continuously tested is the > correct path forward here. Removing an option that seems to > break due to not beeing tested (your original assertion) is not > only false (I pointed out, and do know for a fact that Michael > Dexter runs BOS on a very regulary basis, infact near continously.) > and the wrong path forward. > > Fix the broken stuff, stop letting stuff rot because you don't care > to work on it, or because it is not being "tested". This is a volunteer based project people are doing their best to try to fix broken stuff if 1/ they are aware of the issue 2/ if they are able to fix it. The limit of a volunteer project is how much time everyone can dedicate to it. The more options we have and more complex it is to ensure that every combinations do work. It is interesting how much you are patronizing every one on what should be fixed and what should be done and how but you are actually doing nothing as an individual to help here, you can volunteer to fix things at your level you know? This thread is about the usefulness of an option, and yet noone has demonstrated the usefulness of WITHOUT_CXX here in 2021. For any embedded systems the WITHOUT_* have never been enough and there are way to build a very very tiny viable FreeBSD image in an industrial manner which are way more efficient that the WITHOUT KNOBS. I am not saying we should stop providing those, just we should stop maintaining the one that makes no sense anymore or are very complicated to maintain. Best regards, Bapt