From nobody Sat Aug 09 11:16:38 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzddg4Dklz643c3 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:16:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzddg0PJ5z3VT6 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:16:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-23ffa7b3b30so27903615ad.1 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 04:16:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1754738213; x=1755343013; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BgSJIPFzJ7oqunrbiL/dRx8syuqLhLpNRN7p/UGgq9g=; b=Q2ggSlQFx3f7WGFgL7iGJD6qasEU7PGCm25+iDu1Hnwk4YvHB2rcMNwoDno6q+XXWk yF4umqtcL0jBrey/2IjKad4GSGkrOtTN9JVoZXu25eYxmpmxkALtV8LarYb/BHA6k8gw qVqF0UZTjUa0JjB0C1VCGio/ca8bg07+u/2Ncfnxs/jW5scEUfAg8WXguVzFP7iRRFdq TsNPQw+UWTG3MGn7vasLTgB1A8fvN++91X6G9UgttRZzHZ5mif4zrqAyl/+/fOAoV7sr XxPNqlj848pw77fzfHpfEiDC5igzmq1XrX0a1HcpAr651K2BYiG3aVgg44bpmiDOSw39 MNmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754738213; x=1755343013; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=BgSJIPFzJ7oqunrbiL/dRx8syuqLhLpNRN7p/UGgq9g=; b=L7kU+j6Pie/lsAQhfu+yOG/w7xjt/KauraNVEcoa1YJAqCDI7o4tD9zIeo0golkYlu h02Mihi7deQRs0IYiQGJ7/RP/36CY+29QViApoqSPsqgIVqoF7rncCkOkTK5ZLNxXY+K LJACI8NffsZoy/TLGxFEY9xVowxsi2UHrpy3vnUr1JvzrzxCFwD8qpjfMVIqvqEPSj+B uqa9W6+dDdVJmm/pU7y0MR8va1LM1MWB8b9TJ/a/s088EXQqGeqIfWppeoohVP3Qac4L bNtIt7+FCFr2baIMGwtbK0JRpAWOW20nDlH+13tsTuddGUElMp0RszdhVJ889sipeIZp uZ2w== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXpE/RybVq2mIGWDcUGejZaQXVYRjM7zsDEy9ipp6OcDzQJgQ+P+T/n19cNG39IhB9Xz7xMql7o6tfCefvMO+k=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxVwayHy+8z1F3Vrq1P3B8QuugS5/umpiJLLvBFMCQf8ZsSV+qI AGUlvJBCfYzLKKZj/AjRwJ/6NdL57gZ9+/2xEgrDDM4ZyKs6veo2RGXCUZU2soZGfBV4sTrRYEe bT+oD1JQy7XhISk/LfcA/00DOMfTsLH2fdhrocxc/580dQc2sP9Fe/ug= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvyLvwR3ncnuLSYv4wB8PsAsDuPuw6RxGwCKDtAip+0gg1TcEMgUU/8fL0JPkw 8Feh1BToUcMpzjvflFNqsRWd4S2tyE+lHyUw5a8ofVHmN7TjtT731g72BCEIJCNjkLY3H4KK3sK et0tcOImunfYBKXi6oz6u8g23rPIs4MfAdBDLoiopHw/YUQg/ZusR/aB8TLp6XboWcJZvMPTEkc yu3ATEDTztXriwf/ptOH94ZfV7pQicVt4dW X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFS61dUiRNeh4SGA7F62wScy7Bk/KwUmp4iDtXgFirIUg1bxKCfoORp40xQM6DOAznFZGnUajhw4Kgg7rok7r0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e886:b0:240:84b:a11a with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-242c203d400mr100797725ad.17.1754738212479; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 04:16:52 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> In-Reply-To: <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 05:16:38 -0600 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXyTB9uvTSrSEsTXM_n7Q-AzexpL00djJlidyAzZFH2Kj05eANXoDHGs_6Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: David G Lawrence Cc: Tomoaki AOKI , Michal Meloun , FreeBSD Current Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d43b33063becd358" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzddg0PJ5z3VT6 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --000000000000d43b33063becd358 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 4:13=E2=80=AFAM David G Lawrence w= rote: > > On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200 > > Michal Meloun wrote: > > > > > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote: > > > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" > is > > > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We shoul= d > find > > > >>> a way to make that work as it always has > > > >> > > > >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, > including those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the > ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of > other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems. > > > > > > > > We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't > mean your > > > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot = - > but then > > > > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing: > X11 didn't > > > > work when you first installed the base system, either. And perhaps > your > > > > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to d= o > to > > > > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the > > > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place. > > > > > > > > -DG > > > > > > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with > > > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd. > > > > > > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inability o= f > > > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this > > > solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand > that > > > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > > > > > Michal > > > > Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. > > > > On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especially > > SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers > > and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native > > drivers. > > > > This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in > > ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as > > kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. > > > > What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. > > Tomoaki, > > I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I think this is > pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src > committers. > It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It > didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken > in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed. > Fun fact: bectl would completely fix the pkg delete issue. But I digress: rm -rf In the wrong spot also will kill base. It's a strange hill to die on. It also ignores common use cases, like wifibox, that make a system critically dependent on ports that in simplwr times didn't happen... But some perspective on rtsx. the rtsx driver is an obscure edge case 1000 times less popular than the sdhci driver. And even that is 1000x less popular than nvme. Given limited time and lack of ability to buy the rtsx hardware easily, it's hard to justify using my time for that driver when testing patches for other drivers is easier and benefits more people. That's why I passed over some of the changes there, especially since there were big issues with that driver initially that would have taken a lot of time to articulate. That is how I have prioritized my time on the thousands of fixes i have done for people, many the same day. Using it as a posterchild for src being slow overstates the problems typical patches have gwtting in. I have been trying to solve the actual, underlying problems behind it: getting the pipeline flowing better through reduced friction for submissions (some good, but many lousy and it takes time to sort and you never know if a lot of feedback will produce a better outcome for any given problematic patch). Getting a deeper bench onboard and growing aspects of our culture are also key areas needing help. I've had a hard time getting others to help, assume ownership, follow through on promises, etc. If you want to help fix things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fixing that increases the scarse developer resources and helps make it easier to fix more issues. But 4 years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solutions. Warnet -DG > > * Dr. David G. Lawrence > * * DG Labs > Pave the road of life with opportunities. > > --000000000000d43b33063becd358 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 4:13=E2=80= =AFAM David G Lawrence <dg@dglawren= ce.com> wrote:
> On Sat, = 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200
> Michal Meloun <mmel@FreeBSD.org> wrote:
>
> > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote:
> > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence <dg@d= glawrence.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that &qu= ot;pkg delete -af" is
> > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base sys= tem. We should find
> > >>> a way to make that work as it always has
> > >>
> > >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from= packages, including those necessary for the display to work. It will destr= oy the ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot = of other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems.=
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We can fix that, too. ...but destroying k= ernel modules doesn't mean your
> > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work w= hen you reboot - but then
> > > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here= 9;s the thing: X11 didn't
> > > work when you first installed the base system, either. And p= erhaps your
> > > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have som= e work to do to
> > > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you di= d the
> > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place.
> > >
> > > -DG
> >
> > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with
> > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd.
> >
> > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inabili= ty of
> > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own,=C2=A0 so = this
> > solution=C2=A0 has some problems.=C2=A0 And don't kill me, I = fully understand that
> > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous = fact.
> >
> > Michal
>
> Sometimes yes, but sometimes no.
>
> On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especiall= y
> SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers=
> and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native=
> drivers.
>
> This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in
> ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as
> kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src.
>
> What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver= .

Tomoaki,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I th= ink this is
pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src committers= .
It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It
didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken<= br> in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed.
=

Fun fact: bectl would complet= ely fix the pkg delete issue. But I digress: rm -rf In the wrong spot also = will kill base. It's a strange hill to die on. It also ignores common u= se cases, like wifibox, that make a system critically dependent on ports th= at in simplwr times didn't happen...

<= div dir=3D"auto">But some perspective on rtsx.=C2=A0 the rtsx driver is an = obscure edge case 1000 times less popular than the sdhci driver. And even t= hat is 1000x less popular than nvme. Given limited time and lack of ability= to buy the rtsx hardware easily, it's hard to justify using my time fo= r that driver when testing patches for other drivers is easier and benefits= more people. That's why I passed over some of the changes there, espec= ially since there were big issues with that driver initially that would hav= e taken a lot of time to articulate. That is how I have prioritized my time= on the thousands of fixes i have done for people, many the same day. Using= it as a posterchild for src being slow overstates the problems typical pat= ches have gwtting in.

I = have been trying to solve the actual, underlying problems behind it: gettin= g the pipeline flowing better through reduced friction for submissions (som= e good, but many lousy and it takes time to sort and you never know if a lo= t of feedback will produce a better outcome for any given problematic patch= ). Getting a deeper bench onboard and growing aspects of our culture are al= so key areas needing help. I've had a hard time getting others to help,= assume ownership, follow through on promises, etc. If you want to help fix= things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fixing that increases the sc= arse developer resources and helps make it easier to fix more issues. But 4= years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solutions.

Warnet

-DG

=C2=A0*=C2=A0 Dr. David G. Lawrence
* * DG Labs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pave the road of life with opportunities.

--000000000000d43b33063becd358--