From nobody Sat Aug 09 06:29:25 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzWG70Wp9z63X5k for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:29:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Received: from dglawrence.com (dglawrence.com [50.76.111.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailx.dglawrence.com", Issuer "mailx.dglawrence.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzWG6457pz3nhw for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:29:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mailx.dglawrence.com ([10.19.1.8]) by dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 5796TRM5042902 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dglawrence.com; s=ab7ba439; t=1754720967; bh=xuK3awleKfv+1PuJXXncszmxRhZbijFvIDmDjFpmVuA=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=ZIYEvKaOuhvL5nQKet+8N1Eiw73jRtfq+60kuFSN9BopO8iRMCIf8EL9DTIUYMv6q 8WGRlkWGXsgjRaEtGwyg5d4Tuf6uzjTJGaqBkgyFjKSeW0kA3fJ9iEy5T0+pg20uUH t0zlBvcNuWbHadLv/1rS0cWsh3vEmyOpfhWRCE10= Received: (from dg@localhost) by mailx.dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 5796TPv8042901; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:29:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:29:25 -0700 From: David Greenman-Lawrence To: Sulev-Madis Silber Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (dglawrence.com [10.19.1.8]); Fri, 08 Aug 2025 23:29:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzWG6457pz3nhw X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:50.76.0.0/14, country:US] > i think vermadden actually "screamed" because this turned into kind of a "desbsd" discussion. isn't "vmdbsd" either. is, well, "free" bsd, funnily > > before this turns into complete virtual fistfight... > > who has authority on this os anyway? > > i already once mentioned elsewhere that not much goes on in fbsd. as compared to eg, ff. i consider mozilla having gone past "user is our friend approach" lately. unfortunately without users, projects become meaningless > > but here? > > who has, like, powers? is it: > > old devs who have write access to src repo? > new devs who have write access to src repo? > currently elected core? > any of previous core? > any original guys like mckusick? > big companies? > small companies? > sysadmins? > users? > random hackers? > sunday fbsd users? > the foundation? > any other known guys? > or i mean gals, we have those too, tho i only recall one once had fights over inclusion problems which i don't mind of who wrote the code > any nation state? > who else? In the mid 1990s, for a short time, it would have been me - David Greenman as FreeBSD "Principal Architect". I didn't wear that hat very long, because something not too dissimilar to this came up and I tried to find a compromise solution that neither party liked. It was a nightmare and ultimately I was blamed for it. I realized that an authority, at least within a single person, was not the right way to resolve these things, so I voluntarily resigned the position. You've said a lot of interesting things, and I apologize for trimming your message for brevity. If others want to selectively respond to that, then they should quote you directly. FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find a way to make that work as it always has - to restore a system to its base without destroying it. Now, how to do that? Well, one way is the separate pkgbase. Another is to have some way to flag or protect the base packages so that they are not included in this instance - make them immutable somehow. It just doesn't make sense to destroy the running system no matter how you slice it. -DG * Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs Pave the road of life with opportunities.