Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature

I could not agree more with You on every aspect you just wrote.

I started with FreeBSD little later then You - with 5.3 or 5.4 - and I also spent about two decades of my life with FreeBSD as I am 41 now.

... and changing all these 'master' to 'main' is/was such a bullshit.

I can only hope that these pointless and harmful changes did not bring any new bugs.




Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature
Data: 2025-08-08 16:44
Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee>
Adresat: freebsd-current@freebsd.org; 

> 
> > oh people can get a lot worse than this
> 
> people can get "stupid" users to execute data destructive commands and
watch in group as it's deleting right now and later laugh and say why
didn't you check. as if they won some kind of battle
> 
> people can say multiple times how others waste their time and they
should pay them or look things up on their own because they don't simply
tell them what they know. again, looks like battle for nothing
> 
> i don't usually need people in my life. i don't also feel need to
"live their lives" for them without them wanting it by suggesting that
their way is "wrong"
> 
> if i make a program with grey background and i later change it to
yellow, perhaps without option to change it, i've made a bad decision for
someone else who i don't even care what bg color (s)he likes. btw, i hate
english for not allowing me to use genderless words here
> 
> actually what's good is that every part of fbsd is open. you can go
and undo the "kings" decision. if you have enough changes locally, and it's
past simple configuration, and involves a code too, and others like it too,
now you have created a fork
> 
> so what's this war about?
> 
> how many times have you been pissed that data is getting deleted too
easily? i recall many times. while i don't recall times where i need to
pass yet another option to finally get rid of data
> 
> have you done any woodwork? piece is bit too long and you need to cut
it again? vs. piece is too short
> 
> similarly, mains sockets have covers because vfib is bad. imagine you
tell electrician why did you poke finger into contacts, didn't you know
it's dangerous
> 
> unsure what will happen to fbsd. there have been number of changes
since 4.6. some are good. some are bad. pkgbase would eliminate need for a
202 line long src.conf with all those without_*'s. but then come all that
-af. who would be pissed if their system doesn't delete stuff easily?
> 
> i recall linux userland rm having extra length long option for
deleting /. our rm iirc was just updated to not ever do this. i wonder
where's war for both. you don't usually do it
> 
> same here. unsure where to draw the line but why not having extra
check if you indeed remove all. unsure how many people -af regularly but
> 
> and indeed, question is about safety. i don't like the unnecessary
handholding type but here it might be good
> 
> i mean there have been number of things in fbsd what i've been
observing quietly over years. i mean who questions the authority, right,
eh...? all the different things. like i told you it's bad, why didn't you
listen. or this is good. or who made this decision behind my back?
> 
> at this point, i could maybe change topic to freebsd design decisions
and / or write to different list
> 
> because i sometimes don't get anymore who needs this os? who uses it?
what features does it need? how many platforms? how long support cycles?
embedded or not?
> 
> oh it's still heading to general good direction i think. that's why
i'm here. just with ouch this hurts pain screams along the way from people
> 
> it has been somehow faster in recent years. unsure, whole world has
seemingly broken in last 5 years and maybe it creeped into fbsd as well
> 
> oh and also, do it yourself is also not very good suggestion. that's
also what people like to eventually say if you question their work. some
will indeed do it. some would not have capability. but still hate the
decisions
> 
> eg if you used have guardrail somewhere and you used to able to lean
on it and now you can't and you often forget, fall and twist ankle
sometimes. you don't really want to adjust to, or look how to build it, or
look for permissions to install. if you just want to not get hurt
> 
> that's the main fight here isn't it?
> 
> i don't think i care how base is managed. i find pkgbase better. the
oldobsoletefiles is crazy, etc. i would like to have base under full
control. what installed which file, etc. in ports i have that. in base i
need to pray. or just separate base totally. so you can delete it off.
that's weird too and only apply to certain systems. eg embedded where you
don't store local config in /etc. or thin jails, or so
> 
> but, yeah, who knows
> 
> note that pkgbase is not the only, first and last breaking change in
fbsd
> 
> the full feedback of pkgbase comes of course after it's in release
> 
> also, like always, not all feedback comes directly too. there will be
always "dinner talk" type discussions
> 
> after all, fbsd is still like good. secure, etc. altho it's weird to
see sa or eve en being issued that only affects newest release. eg, how
many betas and rc's the 13 got? and it still came out and had to patched
later. whose decision was to hurry it along and why? would have world
collapsed otherwise?
> 
> eg, in middle of release process of 13 or was it 14, a new driver was
brought in. i was like, new driver? in? last minute? why? sure, now hw is
supported but doesn't the new driver belong to like current? a "business"
or business decision? need to "market" the os? sell or "sell" so to speak.
that's also a fun thing how you need to "compete"
> 
> that also reminds me all sorts of issues that came from "coc" thing.
ridicuous patches on wordings, etc. recently i saw change that changed
bunch of masters to mains and was taken back off. who needs that. someone
along those, not fbsd, asked if (s)he's still allowed to "master" a skill.
funnily main boot record is not only a ridiculous in computer industry. but
it doesn't fix anything. the mbr was called that because you need to start
from something. there's no "democracy" in booting up a single machine. i
find view of anthropomorphic computers a weird thing. they aren't even
intelligent right now
> 
> also whose decision it was to remove offensive fortune jokes from this
"adult" os
> 
> did anybody complain? where does it stop? many manpages tell you to
execute this. should it be changed to something like, if you want, you can
do this, but we don't force you if you don't really want, we don't pressure
you. i mean seriously, someone might get offended. where to draw the line?
> 
> maybe pkgbase will fix it too
> 
> along with pkgbase come another new idea where there is no releases at
all? and that becomes bit hellish. linux distros do it
> 
> actually linux users have complained about fbsd ports always
"rolling". some distros like to keep very old sw and patch it. i don't know
which is better. fixed old or "rolling". now imagine if base starts
"rolling" as well
> 
> it would be whole different os i guess. of course it doesn't need to
be. but tools are there. you could keep same approach as before. release
and have just patches. and keep "rolling" to current
> 
> btw, i never tried pkgbase, but pkg is smart enough to only update
what's needed, right? like if, like, right now, libarchive has sa. would
only those packages be updated? what if it's my own build? and i like
rebuild all? what would happen?
> 
> so yeah, i don't know where we lead here. i will be 42 tomorrow. fbsd
15 soon comes out. i was 18 when 4.6 came. tho i haven't been changed much
in how i like see the world. but people are different eh as people say here
earlier. hopefully fbsd lives long
> 
> also, i never get the major version fast pace. it was once slower
pace. kind of perceived thing that it's latest? browsers lead this game
here. ff has v141. but they don't have added anything new over a hundred
times
> 
> what did fbsd add to justify it? of course, while versioning has told
and untold rules, it's just a number that everyone can just slap on their
code as they please
> 
> so yeah, while like running os is a difficult thing. i don't think all
of those things are needed
> 
> but of course, everyone is pleased to do what they want. they could
even patch or alias the -af on their own if they feel so. just like i have
rm and others always aliased to -i. because it's super rare to delete
stuff, especially broadly
> 
> much of observations here i have been like collecting for decades in
my head and never told anyone
> 
> 
>