Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature

One small 'patch' ...

- this is not unacceptable to say the least.
+ this is unacceptable to say the least.




Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature
Data: 2025-08-08 3:37
Nadawca: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>
Adresat: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee>; "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org; freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org; 

> 
>> OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet
the PKGBASE concept - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA
principle at all - and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of
'classic' install the 'pkg delete -af' will not only delete all the third
party packages but will also WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ...
this is not unacceptable to say the least.
> 
> My 'vote' here does not changed.
> 
> Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with:
> - /etc/pkg
> - /usr/local/etc/pkg
> - /var/db/pkg
> 
> Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with:
> - /etc/pkgbase
> - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase
> - /var/db/pkgbase
> 
> Its literally the same 'separation' as the Base System for binaries:
> - /bin
> - /usr/bin
> - /sbin
> - /usr/sbin
> 
> And /usr/local PREFIX for third party packages as:
> - /usr/local/bin
> - /usr/local/sbin
> 
> Regards,
> vermaden
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature
> Data: 2025-08-07 2:10
> Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber"
<freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee>
> Adresat: freebsd-current@freebsd.org; 
> 
>> 
>>> what linux distros do here? extra options to avoid
> deleting the basic things like kernel and minimal userland utils? if
you
> happen to make way too broad package deletion. i don't think linux
> sysadmins want it either. even if you consider linux moving faster and
with
> less seatbelts ("allow shit like that" (c) vermaden). it's not pkg
fault it
> does wipe system clean if you asked it. also, des@ reminded me that
pkg
> replaced older tracking system 12 years ago. yet, i see pkg production
> versions being released just recently with a bug that user immediately
> notices. it was fixed because oops humans make mistakes. but it would
be a
> horror if pkg does those things when it manages the entire system.
granted,
> you can always boot at least external media when any "nuclear" pkg
update
> comes out. this one wasn't but... and one could say that pkgbase is
> extensively discussed everywhere. but we still have discussions like
this
> here. even fights. what if you miss all those? i never knew 32bit is
on the
> way out until i happened to randomly read that warning from kernel
boot
> log. there are number of those things in fbsd. happened earlier,
happened
> lately. maybe it's inevitable. were you scared to install new major
version
> like 5 or 13 right away because who knows what will happen? luckily
there
> are 2, sometimes 3 majors to choose from should some of them include
rushed
> in late changes that turned out to be buggy. it feels like it got
worse
> lately. i mean more changes, more breaks. i don't know why this isn't
> confined to current or stable. those are annoying type of changes.
> hopefully pkgbase will not be switched on before it's done. but pkg
for
> ports still has issues and it's now default package manager here.
feels
> like too much hassle. there are many changes, i mean. good, but extra
fuzz.
> drm for gpus, wifi driver changes, wifi adapter firmware loading
changes.
> all with somebody complaining that (s)he didn't know there was
breaking
> change. i don't have had reason to run -af and not checking either but
if
> you had habit of doing that, it would be similar to rm ~ catching the
/
> along too. unsure what the fix is. (userland) utils and kernel
printing it
> out to console? over longer period of time? i mean i could understand
that
> change was discussed "everywhere", meetings, mailing lists. it would
still
> be missed. if i make something, which i only tried once, and publish
it, i
> would never expect them to be aware of changes i make. because release
> notes, changelogs, those don't get attention. and you can still miss
stuff.
> i once told that correct procedure is to check everything throughly
and
> then upgrade, but i have passed this myself often. and have gotten
> "fallouts" too. in fbsd the only thing i would need to stand back,
squint
> and duck is when booting new  current. when pkgbase gets out in
installer,
> i expect it to still have issues and i would rather stand back and
watch
> this "nuke" going off. because it does make radical changes. one of
most
> wtf is that now one needs to deal /etc in new ways. and if those
differ
> from mergemaster or etcupdate, it would make somebody mad. perhaps
even
> worse than i could. in my mind, changes are good. if they are
reasonable.
> and known. probably knowing is biggest issue. what if one misses all
those
> 10 different places? i never checked, does freebsd-update tell that
pkgbase
> is coming? does buildworld, maybe installworld tell that? that i
actually
> used and i don't see it. because those are like places where you see
it. i
> can't recall if ports warned of pkgng coming soon? i also prefer if
those
> messages would include plans and not final decisions to make a change.
i
> haven't tries pkgbase myself, maybe i will, maybe i don't. unsure what
fix
> is. maybe start putting things right into where everyone sees it.
unsure.
> and if i were you, whoever leads pkgbase initiative in "high castle"
(it
> does feel like this!), i would not let users delete base with -af.
it's
> rather unusual anyway and i don't think not deleting would get people
as
> mad as deleting stuff. i can't recall what was it, was it repo manager
on
> linux distro or something else but something wanted you to write whole
> sentence, observing caps and so on. then it executed that irreversible
> operation. in my systems, i've been configured things to ask date
& times
> when i really wanted to not do anything stupid. that would get
somebody's
> brain working and maybe they interrupt their autopilot mode if they
didn't
> actually want it. trust me, deleting freebsd-kernel, removing
freebsd-bin,
> pkg-bootstrap... isn't what you want to see, then it's too late. and
yes,
> add echos to installworld end and freebsd-update if it's not there
already
> because that's what people see
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On August 7, 2025 1:21:32 AM GMT+03:00, vermaden 
> wrote:
>>>So You still do not understand ...
>>>
>>>The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most
> of the FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow
shit
> like that ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature
>>>Data: 2025-08-07 0:13
>>>Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey.net>
>>>Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>; 
>>>DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org;
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No, it has the same behaviour.
>>>>> 
>>>>> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in
> more
>>>simple words as you probably did not understood.
>>>>> 
>>>>> NOPE.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It DOES NOT has the same behavior.
>>>> 
>>>> In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your
system,
>>>like you asked.
>>>> 
>>>> I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking
> result
>>>when you have specified the “all” and “force” flags.  In
fact
> it is
>>>exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very
> far
>>>from a violation of the principle of least astonishment.
>>>> 
>>>> Ceri
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
>