From nobody Thu Aug 07 00:09:42 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4by6x95NWGz64PYS for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 00:10:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4by6x833YZz3nm5 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 00:10:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b=DSVs4TJC; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee designates 2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=ketas.si.pri.ee X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ketas.si.pri.ee; s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096; t=1754525383; bh=V4d257hJM54vPwfjLq9dicqEGsBaxW8VfXIdvTgl0rk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=DSVs4TJCw00NfRlHdvdCi9tmTFb6nb4fEal6bw6yULMqn50GfaP7r7K6mp02n7fh+ RwhzXxOktfYjLuMYXEqDRIDo5jbyqJ55Lp6IQiQvHDFIrduDBXx4dwJKBzdj6V2HHT +yTGDgU+f21ZC4iNoNBsNlhXt4bMibg1G2Tz5/9pnE87lquufqhmnJoWrjnXFxqlje yDwtXqpeVNn9Sr2biRlGuY1uL5vk7KrTL9Mb8tpqPgfTrB7IU38tYGFO0UXLVrcMjq AkP/uGkPZlEEC2lREBtyb/sL6P2URbgyu1nhDWDIEMjjrrQL3fyFPWirFMUGOC5MV0 t6YCnejI4U9otphfB66UYgeV5iZJTalqw/JUcEVRcZaTUHdhg/0hqFqBn7ihpqo3kD jf4//drABf89d4m4JD9QeOaGkRMU1xnaNq1jIzwOzKvsCwWV8fuJEuOMQvKAn0vFjW ZmhyaLDspLBvN+qAsLd9WNhyqEL79LRdGIlzz5DJxUsJJD4pNohqaRsvRM215+vQsZ tV3MuTY3nAMeE5YgqvvM+KnOEccybMbDkwLwBX8o4k3qWqz8qQGWNH0UtA6kCk3gUf cvJf6HPF9qHMfWpihzz8DDBH7bmElc6/XgU9frLxNyJ5WvVFczXbVrYvDWPp9ucp0N JaOI58j1Ekqp/xF/ylfmARYA= Received: from [IPv6:::1] (0115-0000-0000-0000-13c8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 558D95BC9E3 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 03:09:43 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2025 03:09:42 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.80 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4by6x833YZz3nm5 X-Spamd-Bar: / what linux distros do here? extra options to avoid deleting the basic thing= s like kernel and minimal userland utils? if you happen to make way too bro= ad package deletion=2E i don't think linux sysadmins want it either=2E even= if you consider linux moving faster and with less seatbelts ("allow shit l= ike that" (c) vermaden)=2E it's not pkg fault it does wipe system clean if = you asked it=2E also, des@ reminded me that pkg replaced older tracking sys= tem 12 years ago=2E yet, i see pkg production versions being released just = recently with a bug that user immediately notices=2E it was fixed because o= ops humans make mistakes=2E but it would be a horror if pkg does those thin= gs when it manages the entire system=2E granted, you can always boot at lea= st external media when any "nuclear" pkg update comes out=2E this one wasn'= t but=2E=2E=2E and one could say that pkgbase is extensively discussed ever= ywhere=2E but we still have discussions like this here=2E even fights=2E wh= at if you miss all those? i never knew 32bit is on the way out until i happ= ened to randomly read that warning from kernel boot log=2E there are number= of those things in fbsd=2E happened earlier, happened lately=2E maybe it's= inevitable=2E were you scared to install new major version like 5 or 13 ri= ght away because who knows what will happen? luckily there are 2, sometimes= 3 majors to choose from should some of them include rushed in late changes= that turned out to be buggy=2E it feels like it got worse lately=2E i mean= more changes, more breaks=2E i don't know why this isn't confined to curre= nt or stable=2E those are annoying type of changes=2E hopefully pkgbase wil= l not be switched on before it's done=2E but pkg for ports still has issues= and it's now default package manager here=2E feels like too much hassle=2E= there are many changes, i mean=2E good, but extra fuzz=2E drm for gpus, wi= fi driver changes, wifi adapter firmware loading changes=2E all with somebo= dy complaining that (s)he didn't know there was breaking change=2E i don't = have had reason to run -af and not checking either but if you had habit of = doing that, it would be similar to rm ~ catching the / along too=2E unsure = what the fix is=2E (userland) utils and kernel printing it out to console? = over longer period of time? i mean i could understand that change was discu= ssed "everywhere", meetings, mailing lists=2E it would still be missed=2E i= f i make something, which i only tried once, and publish it, i would never = expect them to be aware of changes i make=2E because release notes, changel= ogs, those don't get attention=2E and you can still miss stuff=2E i once to= ld that correct procedure is to check everything throughly and then upgrade= , but i have passed this myself often=2E and have gotten "fallouts" too=2E = in fbsd the only thing i would need to stand back, squint and duck is when = booting new current=2E when pkgbase gets out in installer, i expect it to = still have issues and i would rather stand back and watch this "nuke" going= off=2E because it does make radical changes=2E one of most wtf is that now= one needs to deal /etc in new ways=2E and if those differ from mergemaster= or etcupdate, it would make somebody mad=2E perhaps even worse than i coul= d=2E in my mind, changes are good=2E if they are reasonable=2E and known=2E= probably knowing is biggest issue=2E what if one misses all those 10 diffe= rent places? i never checked, does freebsd-update tell that pkgbase is comi= ng? does buildworld, maybe installworld tell that? that i actually used and= i don't see it=2E because those are like places where you see it=2E i can'= t recall if ports warned of pkgng coming soon? i also prefer if those messa= ges would include plans and not final decisions to make a change=2E i haven= 't tries pkgbase myself, maybe i will, maybe i don't=2E unsure what fix is= =2E maybe start putting things right into where everyone sees it=2E unsure= =2E and if i were you, whoever leads pkgbase initiative in "high castle" (i= t does feel like this!), i would not let users delete base with -af=2E it's= rather unusual anyway and i don't think not deleting would get people as m= ad as deleting stuff=2E i can't recall what was it, was it repo manager on = linux distro or something else but something wanted you to write whole sent= ence, observing caps and so on=2E then it executed that irreversible operat= ion=2E in my systems, i've been configured things to ask date & times when = i really wanted to not do anything stupid=2E that would get somebody's brai= n working and maybe they interrupt their autopilot mode if they didn't actu= ally want it=2E trust me, deleting freebsd-kernel, removing freebsd-bin, pk= g-bootstrap=2E=2E=2E isn't what you want to see, then it's too late=2E and = yes, add echos to installworld end and freebsd-update if it's not there alr= eady because that's what people see On August 7, 2025 1:21:32 AM GMT+03:00, vermaden w= rote: >So You still do not understand =2E=2E=2E > >The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most of t= he FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow shit like th= at =2E=2E=2E > > > > >Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature >Data: 2025-08-07 0:13 >Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey=2Enet> >Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia=2Epl>;=20 >DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd-pkg@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd-cur= rent@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd-stable@freebsd=2Eorg;=20 > > > >>> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>=20 >>>> No, it has the same behaviour=2E >>>=20 >>> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in more >simple words as you probably did not understood=2E >>>=20 >>> NOPE=2E >>>=20 >>> It DOES NOT has the same behavior=2E >>=20 >> In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your system, >like you asked=2E >>=20 >> I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking result >when you have specified the =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cforce=E2= =80=9D flags=2E In fact it is >exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very far >from a violation of the principle of least astonishment=2E >>=20 >> Ceri >>>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >