From nobody Sun Jun 26 18:53:14 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C417887FBAF; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:53:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grembo@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.evolve.de (mail.evolve.de [213.239.217.29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA512 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.evolve.de", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4LWKkP49xzz4fWf; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:53:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grembo@freebsd.org) Received: by mail.evolve.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 825c635a; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:53:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.evolve.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 00c76c20 (TLSv1.3:AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO); Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:53:15 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1847D58B-9A02-4D3C-A5B8-EEED72944327 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. From: Michael Gmelin In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 20:53:14 +0200 Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <5BCE171C-8D95-47E9-AD8E-8F2B75F5E8B5@freebsd.org> References: To: Walter Parker X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19E258) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4LWKkP49xzz4fWf X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 213.239.217.29 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of grembo@freebsd.org) smtp.mailfrom=grembo@freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.61 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grembo]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.971]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.54)[-0.539]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.500]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current,freebsd-doc,freebsd-questions]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:213.239.192.0/18, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --Apple-Mail-1847D58B-9A02-4D3C-A5B8-EEED72944327 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 26. Jun 2022, at 20:19, Walter Parker wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it= ), I didn=E2=80=99t insinuate that it=E2=80=99s good for me to post to three li= sts at a time either, but how would you decide which one to leave out when r= esponding to a post you received on multiple lists? My original response red= uced the number of lists involved, but I was quoted on all three lists again= , so I also responded on all of them. > what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D HTML. U= TF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients and= does not require HTML for support. >=20 At some point in this email exchange he was suggesting to remove any kind of= special characters from email and documentation and my original response (h= e quoted) was partially about this. If it=E2=80=99s just about HTML: I would love to eliminate HTML email, but m= ost email clients create it without the user having a chance to intervene. A= n example is iOS Mail, which creates html as soon as you copy and paste almo= st anything into it. AFAIK it still manages to create a useful plain text al= ternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone remembers), which makes it better than o= ther email clients - so filtering away html in this case would be fine. But t= here is no option that says =E2=80=9Csend plaintext email=E2=80=9D. I also agree that the original exchange that sparked this debate was quite t= errible in terms of email formatting (it looked like outlook, no quoting, to= p posting like exchanging written letters, using various font types and size= s). So if we could eliminate these kind of emails, I would be happy. Cheers Michael=20 p.s. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure top posting is also against netiquette - unless= *you* do it of course ;) >=20 > Walter >=20 >> On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin wrote= : >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp wrote: >>>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>=20 >>>> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/= en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc >>>>=20 >>>> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections >>>> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754 >>>>=20 >>>> I'm glad that HTML is supported. >>>=20 >>> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. >>> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. >>>=20 >>>> Also, I want support for things such as PNG. >>>=20 >>> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, >>> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. >>>=20 >>>> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in >>>> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all >>>> the messages? >>>=20 >>> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. >>> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and >>> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> we are dealing with real people working with the email >>>> clients available to them in 2022 >>>=20 >>> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette >>> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and discipline= d. >>=20 >> Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various a= rguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave very sp= ecific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile= devices where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects of how th= ings are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be f= ollowed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we want t= o have communication happen on our mailing lists. >>=20 >> My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to foll= ow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the t= ypographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use A= SCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80=98" to "= '" manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an acc= eptable experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen. >>=20 >> If your email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2= =80=99s time to fix your setup. >>=20 >> -m >>=20 >> p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of z= eal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis --Apple-Mail-1847D58B-9A02-4D3C-A5B8-EEED72944327 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 26. Jun 2022, at 20= :19, Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
= So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it),=

I didn=E2=80=99t insinuat= e that it=E2=80=99s good for me to post to three lists at a time either, but= how would you decide which one to leave out when responding to a post you r= eceived on multiple lists? My original response reduced the number of lists i= nvolved, but I was quoted on all three lists again, so I also responded on a= ll of them.

what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D= HTML. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email cli= ents and does not require HTML for support.

=

At some point in this email exchange he was= suggesting to remove any kind of special characters from email and document= ation and my original response (he quoted) was partially about this.

If it=E2=80=99s just about HTML: I would love to eliminate= HTML email, but most email clients create it without the user having a chan= ce to intervene. An example is iOS Mail, which creates html as soon as you c= opy and paste almost anything into it. AFAIK it still manages to create a us= eful plain text alternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone remembers), which mak= es it better than other email clients - so filtering away html in this case w= ould be fine. But there is no option that says =E2=80=9Csend plaintext email= =E2=80=9D.

I also agree that the original exchange t= hat sparked this debate was quite terrible in terms of email formatting (it l= ooked like outlook, no quoting, top posting like exchanging written letters,= using various font types and sizes). So if we could eliminate these kind of= emails, I would be happy.

Cheers
Michael=  

p.s. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure top posting is also a= gainst netiquette - unless *you* do it of course ;)


Walter

On S= un, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote:


On 26. Jun 20= 22, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
<= a href=3D"https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/con= tent/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc" target=3D"_blank">https://git= hub.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handboo= k/eresources/_index.adoc

FreeBSD Hand= book: Appendix C: updates and corrections
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug= .cgi?id=3D264754
=
I'm glad that HTML i= s supported.

No, people should= not be sending HTML emails to lists.
Consult history of ema= il netiquettes to discover the many why's.

Also, I want support for things such as PNG.

Attachments are not necessarily aga= inst such netiquettes,
but rightly tend to be administrative= ly size limited.

= What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in
the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that= is already appended to all
the messages?

There is n= o such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.
= Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and=
via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat.


we a= re dealing with real people working with the email
clients available to them in 2022

Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 e= tc, and the netiquette
won validity for good reasons and is s= till taught trained and disciplined.

<= /div>
Trying to stop people from using U= TF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from different people withou= t context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, including the fact t= hat a lot of email is written on mobile devices where people don=E2=80=99t h= ave control over many aspects of how things are sent and I argued which part= s of netiquette could/should still be followed given the realities of today a= nd where we need to relax if we want to have communication happen on our mai= ling lists.

My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to follow= any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the typ= ographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use ASC= II - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80=98" to "'"= manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an accep= table experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen.

If yo= ur email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2=80=99s= time to fix your setup.

-m

p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multi= ple lists?


--
The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by me= n of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.   -- Justice Lo= uis D. Brandeis
= --Apple-Mail-1847D58B-9A02-4D3C-A5B8-EEED72944327--