From nobody Sun Jun 26 18:32:41 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A18987B78B for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:33:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4LWKGz2m3vz4ZJp for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:32:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com with SMTP id z66so7064791vsb.3 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:32:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OGbMNiD6R/GvcUCYbbVXTpDtj7qOyn2eoSzoh0B8CmE=; b=KU2sl1C2wY4Yzpalw1H4Hcc1oIV0o+2GQJnjzNHTt46VpY2Ydq1sVc9W2hlN7Z8fRW pzAP2BGs/qcHi5GblipUU35L1wKC13MyVnZp1Q/O17gaSG+Y8O9dKQHEe/1QN/CaUdaY cVwGi+R48FgxJDk5piQsqqTefPZ8CKHpYuxp9ECNtArpiqrjV0wAIC8kwK5Yova1liY7 u1bKaPHW4UnjH8qbAKPDMYupr3EC1IFyCylVmqJL1RC/lnICOcPq833pZ1+R+K4mrAV0 Z4JAxubGhReMji7YbUGUOv6q4Ffu8TyncZU5DZWczEYk18fqSKzXqsyuMde+M0GxFR4N LU6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OGbMNiD6R/GvcUCYbbVXTpDtj7qOyn2eoSzoh0B8CmE=; b=w2DaKuLcVEWze4TAwDHN2yfIEoko3pJdNUZ9wtm2CQIYpGT7Lv6fTIdru0fnlKQbf1 zGJf+d9x1h269GrGicFuEAyetmdUp9xvH03Vlc4HUNv7lx3pho/i4NBaWkAr/BFCuZ1m uDKtqPLSQIMeXuL8/CXkFJ8mOa8Tjl81BjfVVIE/T1AHVnNFIhNEweXhcsjCPHJFhhOQ ZWksoI00l6iScwtPiOhbSBMxTjjjd+22XGty6TzxdJwj4KzKEgRuIuf9RMV+A5cIUkwD yAdayjUA7FgNdF6QqL85YMDDc3zLEcMUX1TAD3B4x7/8T+bzsmF5buFvvYZaFfGc2yju QcHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+KgcgPZKN39Mr+qRRdBcDsOLNPb4No+Nbq0JS1+8TQ/+1hSEhD UV8cC1NNOC/FHkPW4BGhxUL172hteXjQE9mZuJrXsQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1vjyBakEQesb5lK2BcncAmFybBiTKUNdVJajGIRuHWcZF6mVQqPYgA993VkANDfs/7OotJY55bmhm3K4s2ulQc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fbd3:0:b0:354:2f5b:6477 with SMTP id o19-20020a67fbd3000000b003542f5b6477mr3285536vsr.76.1656268372933; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:32:52 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <753A27F9-9CEA-4592-A44F-91164917358B@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:32:41 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. To: Walter Parker Cc: Michael Gmelin , freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, FreeBSD questions , FreeBSD Current Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000599cd05e25e084f" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4LWKGz2m3vz4ZJp X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.s=20210112 header.b=KU2sl1C2; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:s=20210112]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000000599cd05e25e084f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 12:20 PM Walter Parker wrote: > So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do > it), what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D H= TML. > UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients > and does not require HTML for support. > Html is fine as well. Most modern mail platforms generate it for you, whether you want them too or not. Most of the advice in appendix c is dated and doesn't really match what people do on the lists. Phones and web based Gmail are to large a presence to ignore or have policies against. I stopped listening to complaints about how Gmail or my phone formatted posts 5 years ago... and I'm definitely an old school straggler... Warner > Walter > > On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin wrote= : > >> >> >> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >> >> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/e= n/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc >> >> >> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections >> >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754 >> >> >> I'm glad that HTML is supported. >> >> >> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. >> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. >> >> Also, I want support for things such as PNG. >> >> >> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, >> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. >> >> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in >> >> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all >> >> the messages? >> >> >> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. >> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and >> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. >> >> >> we are dealing with real people working with the email >> >> clients available to them in 2022 >> >> >> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette >> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and discipline= d. >> >> >> Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various >> arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave ve= ry >> specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on >> mobile devices where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects= of how >> things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should stil= l >> be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if w= e >> want to have communication happen on our mailing lists. >> >> My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to >> follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically choos= es >> the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer= to >> use ASCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80= =98" to "'" >> manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an >> acceptable experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen. >> >> If your email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it= =E2=80=99s time to >> fix your setup. >> >> -m >> >> p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? >> >> > > -- > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of > zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brand= eis > --0000000000000599cd05e25e084f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 12:20 PM Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
So, utf-8 is good, post= ing to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it), what about the origin= al post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D HTML. UTF is a character enco= ding format. It is supported by most email clients and does not require HTM= L for support.

Html is fine as well. Most modern mail platforms gene= rate it for you, whether you want them too or not. Most of the advice in ap= pendix c is dated and doesn't really match what people do on the lists.= Phones and web based Gmail are to large a presence to ignore or have polic= ies against. I stopped listening to complaints about how Gmail or my phone = formatted posts 5 years ago... and I'm definitely an old school straggl= er...

Warner=C2=A0
=


Walter

On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org&= gt; wrote:


On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <= = grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:

FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections
h= ttps://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754

I'm glad that HTML is supported.

No, people should not be sending HTML emails= to lists.
Consult history of email netiquettes to discover= the many why's.

<= span>Also, I want support for things such as PNG.

Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquett= es,
but rightly tend to be administratively size limited.

What is the possi= bility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in
the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is a= lready appended to all
the messages?

There is no = such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.
Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and
via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat= .


we are dealing with real people working with the email
clients available to them in 2022

Same arguments was made in 1982 = 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette
won validity for good rea= sons and is still taught trained and disciplined.

Trying to stop peo= ple from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from differ= ent people without context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, in= cluding the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile devices where peo= ple don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects of how things are sent and= I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be followed given th= e realities of today and where we need to relax if we want to have communic= ation happen on our mailing lists.

My answer here is an example of that - there is no= reasonable way to follow any line length limits on a phone and it also aut= omatically chooses the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even thoug= h I would prefer to use ASCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change eve= ry single "=E2=80=98" to "'" manually or disable th= e features that make typing on such a device an acceptable experience. Just= won=E2=80=99t happen.
If your email client and/= or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2=80=99s time to fix your s= etup.

-m

p.= s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists?
<= div>


--
The greatest dangers to liberty = lurk in insidious encroachment by men=C2=A0of zeal, well-meaning but withou= t understanding. =C2=A0 -- Justice Louis D.=C2=A0Brandeis
--0000000000000599cd05e25e084f--