From nobody Wed Mar 26 21:11:10 2025 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ZNKGM64BYz5rCkx for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2025 21:11:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrtc27@jrtc27.com) Received: from mail-wr1-f42.google.com (mail-wr1-f42.google.com [209.85.221.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4ZNKGM3jMmz3h57 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2025 21:11:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrtc27@jrtc27.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-wr1-f42.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-391342fc148so135566f8f.2 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2025 14:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1743023482; x=1743628282; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pYAeDi3cSlHDfO4ScGp9TyJr1eLT5w3zHF1rad/SV8Y=; b=J3BsDx+t+eusvUEEyKLLrdoQV8yJTX4m1412B4+Ip65f3uK1DouRxuy4N8850KFSVR XZ+Fkwg3Y1ljb6lhL7ydSr9VrB7ehcvmg4nRUzYdcMj9Gqz2Uf+uDEGJ/JRkLyv1IkDu LXdjMJBkdh8u51yGkDFHLYRXAm0/0uLdtOGzhCp6D+dppnInsrcYY1zye5uYu2hwp/Qk W3CPXB2vi7z9wQGq7ztLGMUgBQPxXS1f0lmAN3DuHaiLhcZ8T0uoJ8AbM84hgaahkLk0 l3+3TACfIi1gQUnAHM0JR3tVmeQ8Ves+hg7TEo7oiupkBRHtYu1d+neMEulKbAkdSji0 yw4A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCX3eNqi+DNH/LyHZ81JMguAXWZ2oB/glCNprF6TP+Rw2NRvc2Sb8p2Gyhy60t2tH+xXU+HW@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwP6I4x1EvikwKmF5946NsT9/6iKHa144ja/xCwL1dJd9E8Z9FE +Axdj513PtnjjWaU8baoyodwcSKruVPEB5RpxdYMKxxM2ltdkzOOjr5MCRWIJWs= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsOOBWJZtbe43UF6ScZCzimWVOkm8qwRyEUZlqHKp7GxuzoRSf5JfIsFsVh66e YHTqTNvjJ3P1FHNe2Em1E9rqSoGWaaJLN7L4AGKj5V1EKOz1Gjg2kI0+wNOQM4wsRTXzF6IVRkE OWMMG/YeWCwypbsefKkB2UoClzNGonHhSKKfMA56NDt2ruKu4KboKipGdYs2Uhf/W6Ndkd0HYNE vl8l//GcrX3cwDA5UEUXEXLGebwJrEDaz9623+SbJZZcruffTfDfP3Y1KquOrwBALDL1WrfpOGq d1q9ZvsFWU5AR40yX9tYLx12nI4U5amOHdEg4H8rhjH7kIWKrYXwZFfKdyo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHfws+PEmDOkBaLUdTiatIyGvknCEhjPvBuX/zjLzOOnZJx3mNlouX/J6z656SNzLv/67UIaw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:4021:b0:390:f9d0:5e3 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-39ad1742f01mr769926f8f.1.1743023481633; Wed, 26 Mar 2025 14:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([131.111.5.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3997f9957d9sm17833248f8f.9.2025.03.26.14.11.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Mar 2025 14:11:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jessica Clarke Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E4D854ED-7A25-4990-BF01-C4A599A619F7" List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.300.87.4.3\)) Subject: Re: revocation of /dev/console at the end of rc sequence Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 21:11:10 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Andriy Gapon , arch@freebsd.org To: Warner Losh References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.300.87.4.3) X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4ZNKGM3jMmz3h57 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- --Apple-Mail=_E4D854ED-7A25-4990-BF01-C4A599A619F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 26 Mar 2025, at 21:06, Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Mar 26, 2025 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM Andriy Gapon > wrote: >> On 26/03/2025 10:52 pm, Warner Losh wrote: >> > It's a control daemon for the video subsystem, which is unrelated = to the system >> > console except maybe it will be used as the system console. But = console-kit-daemon >> > doesn't care, if I understand, about the system console: it just = wants to=20 >> > control which >> > of the virtual terminals are current then? Is that a more precise = way of saying=20 >> > what it >> > does avoiding overloaded terms? >>=20 >> Yes. In their own words, ConsoleKit2 is a framework for defining and = tracking=20 >> users, login sessions, and seats. >> In practice, at least on FreeBSD, that translates mostly to tracking = active VTs=20 >> (of the video console) plus logins via ConsoleKit2-aware programs = such as=20 >> various Display Managers. >>=20 >> And I agree that "console" is a very overloaded term. >> E.g., comments in sys/sys/consio.h talk about "console" although it's = pretty=20 >> clear that the ioctl-s are for the video console. >=20 > Yea, after all that I think /dev/ttyv0 is likely the least bad choice = we have in the > absence of a better management device.=20 That=E2=80=99s the conclusion I reached when fixing SDDM=E2=80=99s VT = management, so it=E2=80=99s using /dev/ttyv0 when it needs an arbitrary device for VT = control. Having a device that lets you do all the VT ioctls without also being a specific VT would be good, but /dev/ttyv0 is good enough in practice. Jess --Apple-Mail=_E4D854ED-7A25-4990-BF01-C4A599A619F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On 26 Mar = 2025, at 21:06, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> = wrote:
On Wed, = Mar 26, 2025 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM Andriy Gapon <avg@freebsd.org> = wrote:
On 26/03/2025 = 10:52 pm, Warner Losh wrote:
> It's a control daemon for the video = subsystem, which is unrelated to the system
> console except maybe = it will be used as the system console. But console-kit-daemon
> = doesn't care, if I understand, about the system console: it just wants = to 
> control = which
> of the virtual terminals are current then? Is that a more = precise way of saying 
> what it
> = does avoiding overloaded terms?

Yes.  In their own words, = ConsoleKit2 is a framework for defining and tracking 
users, login sessions, = and seats.
In practice, at least on FreeBSD, that translates mostly = to tracking active VTs 
(of the video console) = plus logins via ConsoleKit2-aware programs such as 
various Display = Managers.

And I agree that "console" is a very overloaded = term.
E.g., comments in sys/sys/consio.h talk about "console" = although it's pretty 
clear that the ioctl-s = are for the video console.

Yea, = after all that I think /dev/ttyv0 is likely the least bad choice we have = in the
absence of a better management = device. 

That=E2=80= =99s the conclusion I reached when fixing SDDM=E2=80=99s VT management, = so
it=E2=80=99s using /dev/ttyv0 when it needs an arbitrary = device for VT control.
Having a device that lets you do all = the VT ioctls without also being a
specific VT would be good, = but /dev/ttyv0 is good enough in = practice.

Jess

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