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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a5e210d3a4bf6988b9fbfd4f0116958c; Wed, 24 May 2023 14:55:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.400.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) [armv7 specific note] Message-Id: <4460B746-F4C7-4BFF-89A3-3A1A964108D5@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 07:55:15 -0700 To: John Baldwin , freebsd-arch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.400.51.1.1) References: <4460B746-F4C7-4BFF-89A3-3A1A964108D5.ref@yahoo.com> X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.22 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.72)[-0.716]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.68.30:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.68.30:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QRDkp6XDlz3px3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N John Baldwin wrote on Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 23:46:51 UTC : > On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > > For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the announcement > > of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's future > > around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggested that > > i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. > > > > My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 > > platform. That is, release images and packages would only be provided > > on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them. I > > think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base system > > (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. > > > > A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forward. > > My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly > > that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that we may > > remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree, > > but we do not plan on building packages or release images. Another > > option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove > > kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland. The > > goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to ship) > > would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the > > window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as an > > input into the final decision for 15. > > We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the consensus > among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), is > that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, but not > kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need for > full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 support > in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. (Prompted by manu's https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2023-May/000454.html .) I'll note that armv7 does not now have lib32 support for aarch64's that support EL0 AArch32. That would be a development effort. armv7 can be used via the likes of chrooting into a armv7 world's directory tree for such aarch64's. That is what I do on aarch64 for armv7. > One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient developer > resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. Sufficient developer support to get lib32 supporting armv7 in place and keep it operational? > We can > largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the release of > 15.0. But for armv7 lib32 development time? > I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we > are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in 15.0, > but may consider keeping armv7. === Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com