From nobody Tue May 23 23:46:51 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QQrZN5d9Hz4TCcp for ; Tue, 23 May 2023 23:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QQrZN58xzz4DGY for ; Tue, 23 May 2023 23:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1684885612; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=CGcunVs0MyhDYbfH69qpZW9i7Wv/2Alze6yf2RJ2UZQ=; b=yQoZL6K7sOCSls4vjrgSUfZK8BfR2VGw9KkHb7q5DJFyJC83XBLRESZHu0JlozWMCXU1ij IHFKrxZzGccG3JQX6lYCymw/bMSUJZ7m5mdF4KRh39GI3tjbnkYuN7pPMwsm46uKUCDb2i APIKoZ3YS87Jgov5ylOPNe1OJxu9F02CMDGRCVwNCoYJsImX4+0ALeUAz5p41gBbD5DHQu EGOqHpFcxFK4UIK0W5H+P8FyNKSRAj3YpcbEVu7EKfjB81a11UHojnMUMuN/cMpNif6i6H W0MI1NWaXOAX5TwHt1tXnKOcJ71tKvqnzoUQH0cWb22GJm1/6r4eo/gXmp9Eyg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1684885612; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=CGcunVs0MyhDYbfH69qpZW9i7Wv/2Alze6yf2RJ2UZQ=; b=Mm0zsEcdnGJObwuMyZ4crfj4QMX4h6cTotktQQ35I21iYOF9b54yWfrYZrX22dDMahyS3l jmBrhaJSQlrZeJuVF1d8kWS8eEpNWJ6aGcE0Z16RoN5/qW81TwlYsdBRDXNNTynqp5kMfI 9Jjt1OI+rsB/YlqaQsA6jQpKqWYE3V7Gb8ZvKAw+b1QdFIhdF7k3+jEnTDouEDD7Hc5vRY 8a5viyICPHudAfy2/xn6aQZWWl44HjOZlnHQGQGSz0WOz1iolTWDXjGetlG4X8UAm1kCKt t+8ceV33gT8BqMX75xQBq7/7QTf2BSts4psJe8pkeM+LRInfPJrpZg0zSoN72w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1684885612; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=nTik6gYwj9UULvQvpTP1uxTJeDyr4fq5yUdWnl3SeeivGWQJv3inacxYnxHkgnd2vOJeRK nzMky19bzujdHh4r+89J45NpmxDXZQUmx/zhdfhyDnUOXcUOUX270xqfRF8cGsC8Zu5RW8 gTCkApOZ8E8N0XzqZI/3ctIOGktXWWqMuqOBMAbIyg0/G8oROtztmmVq3wd+kJFeE9A2R9 dbvSIhQfCvWj+yeNPIxliYINZ0jCInHOYmvEAZTR3uh0Uhb7B8kB7GNvFOxnnwQEhf7cyL pCLFQB3vYXbnOGHa/OiYlaqYLiBn/hkGzmu5/6pk+2L+snv3oDvT6Wq1O4QrsA== Received: from [IPV6:2601:648:8680:16b0:74c7:61ed:2261:6ed4] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8680:16b0:74c7:61ed:2261:6ed4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4QQrZN2t59zkT5 for ; Tue, 23 May 2023 23:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <5a08b091-a1a5-1928-18e1-16c3bddb1a7f@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.0 Content-Language: en-US From: John Baldwin To: 'freebsd-arch' Reply-To: 'freebsd-arch' References: Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the announcement > of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's future > around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggested that > i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. > > My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 > platform. That is, release images and packages would only be provided > on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them. I > think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base system > (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. > > A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forward. > My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly > that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that we may > remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree, > but we do not plan on building packages or release images. Another > option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove > kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland. The > goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to ship) > would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the > window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as an > input into the final decision for 15. We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the consensus among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), is that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, but not kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need for full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 support in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient developer resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. We can largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the release of 15.0. I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in 15.0, but may consider keeping armv7. -- John Baldwin