From nobody Tue Dec 13 19:34:30 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4NWpbm4Kdfz4kb5Y for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 19:34:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x633.google.com (mail-ej1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4NWpbl28MRz4QYD for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 19:34:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.s=20210112 header.b=mlGyW7JS; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::633) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com; dmarc=none Received: by mail-ej1-x633.google.com with SMTP id t17so39187572eju.1 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:34:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5GntIFDKC/ykg8WzkkhWJaXE35mf9I9QzXcjQkb3J3Y=; b=mlGyW7JSN4mjGfghR7q34jiafinSC8TgjdgdjDaXaxm4Uyiiq3OjoV9J+aCMYVSk9v AoUIFXDsjoa4UkqMvro79fFisym/UgSPAYDK/3Iy02id1y5hTQVBm5FmoHFrnOqRW2Ru nU+dcSPtAKqI0vEndZ4cF84N425fUmfEmGzVcUCEupD/oLJo4My23lMH4bz5bI7cjNdE j1vQbdvGTw0C70LIRk2Y/QhWHi8wqYknumVRvLZYHDECr5WZloHfW8TLljRXZdvQ2GNJ YJIUvonPx4y1ThVW7HitBcgbOyMjnrdFMw93lOZibpJz1bbemWVWanV+daQG0gzzydwB NHpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5GntIFDKC/ykg8WzkkhWJaXE35mf9I9QzXcjQkb3J3Y=; b=YM7RgHo0H3dCpvA6hXsEhiOtOPi/SM0W3TBRgDRYr38RBGpXSrFZR+hoXIhD01yxMI 1N45J+8tfSYp8+ziK/BLSz6lb1PW4gb3LrxNcL+KWGxBUJCciIQJBwBV8G4/f94Y00Dm /WIJvSQu9BlWnP1r3AKQUaupFT0IwZF729fPJREOYvhkOSI1ha52IqtExYZJ+ALvvAsI xLN6oEBPIM+P0GtB2kAgEX4ozgHTYxa34GmzQi+E4Rqpro0fhvenL6xBP3kFvD+DxELu uje8YLfkG4SZWd8JigwQcE5t5Yl1KxN3eF4HLcKdCSZkH5ckZQvdiAawNKAgIxOlCi1Y OELQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pm9DjGPtVVFwdX8w3wgNJVo/AoSnXjduobsZ0he15iwnY2/usiy nEQWrV5AIfPRZQtKZ5+PyVcuJTPywbG2xuYXMF8WUwrQTLwlcg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf69q1cj0exLGNiuCdzA2X+UXoYeNvcrIYCh3figbKgRHAXPvTzSrrhMqLmSuyVeskfXE3HRPbzd4CyqrtltaJQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:98ed:b0:7c0:e7a6:cd2d with SMTP id ke13-20020a17090798ed00b007c0e7a6cd2dmr16060342ejc.317.1670960081734; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:34:30 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 14: Poll armv6 deprecated or removed To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001b264505efbab6e1" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:s=20210112]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::633:from]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4NWpbl28MRz4QYD X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000001b264505efbab6e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 12:23 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:48 AM Warner Losh wrote: > >> Sorry for the lag of a year, it's been a crazy time for me and this fell >> through the cracks. >> >> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 9:37 AM Warner Losh wrote: >> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> Given that the number of available and useful armv6 boards has fallen to >>> almost zero, the time has come to look hard at armv6. >>> >>> There's a number of options. >>> >>> 1. Keep it as is. This will only happen if there's a lot more users than >>> we think (and we think there's nearly zero users of FreeBSD 13 and newer >>> that would want to run FreeBSD 14). >>> >>> 2. Stop building packages. Given it's small to non-existent user base, >>> it makes no sense to provide a package building service for it. >>> 2a. We should likely do this anyway for all stable branches since it's a >>> net negative in terms of cost/benefit analysis: lots of effort to produce, >>> very little use. >>> >>> 3. Disconnect it from universe: This will mean it will rot, though. It's >>> a necessary step in removal. >>> >>> 4. Remove support for armv6 in base entirely. This will orphan any RPiB >>> and RPi0 users out there. However, the RPiB hasn't been sold in a few >>> years, and the RPI0's connectivity is severely lacking given no SDIO >>> support. >>> >>> So, which of these steps do we do before FreeBSD 14 and which before >>> FreeBSD 15? >>> >>> My vote would be to do 1-4 for 14 including 2a. >>> >> >> After discussing this offline and distilling the responses here, on IRC, >> etc, I'd like to propose we do the following: >> >> (1) Stop building packages for armv6 entirely, on all branches. While >> there are some users, they can still use poudriere to build package sets >> themselves. Usage data suggests there's not enough demand for these >> packages. >> (2) Move armv6 to an 'EXTRA' target in make universe (eg make universe >> EXTRA_TARGETS=t). Powerpc does this today with powerpcspe since it's not >> completely supported in base. People that care can continue to build it as >> part of universe and we'll fix things that are broken, reported to us and >> have patches that don't regress other platforms. >> (3) After the stable/14 branch next May or June, we'll remove build >> support from ports (very little) and src. We'll also start to tear down >> armv6 support as we see it and are working in other areas, and expect that >> work to be done before stable/15 is branched in a predicted 2025. >> (4) Immediately stop including armv6 -current snapshots as generated by >> re@. >> (5) re@ won't create armv6 release images or artifacts for stable/14, >> 14.0, etc. Users wishing to build it can do so. >> > > Oh, and #6: Demote armv6 (but not armv7) to tier 3. It's been kinda > de-facto there for a while anyway, and this will make the signalling clear > that the runway for armv6 is running out. > As a reminder: this is only the original Raspberry Pi B and the original Pi 0 models. Supported replacements for both of these are available from Raspberry and other vendors. Warner > >> I've send email to re@ asking about #4 and #5. >> >> Warner >> > --0000000000001b264505efbab6e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 12:23 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:


On Tue, Dec 13,= 2022 at 10:48 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
Sorry fo= r the lag of a year, it's been a crazy time for me and this fell throug= h the cracks.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 9:37 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com= > wrote:
Greetings,

Given that the number of ava= ilable and useful armv6 boards has fallen to almost zero, the time has come= to look hard at armv6.

There's a number of op= tions.

1. Keep it as is. This will=C2=A0only happe= n if there's a lot more users than we think (and we think=C2=A0there= 9;s nearly zero users of FreeBSD 13 and newer that would want to run FreeBS= D 14).

2. Stop building packages. Given it's s= mall to non-existent user base, it makes no sense to provide a package buil= ding service for it.
2a. We should likely do this anyway for all = stable branches since it's a net negative in terms of cost/benefit anal= ysis: lots of effort to produce, very little use.

= 3. Disconnect it from universe: This will mean it will rot, though. It'= s a necessary step in removal.

4. Remove support f= or armv6 in base entirely. This will orphan any RPiB and RPi0 users out the= re. However, the RPiB hasn't been sold in a few years, and the RPI0'= ;s connectivity is severely=C2=A0lacking given no SDIO support.
<= br>
So, which of these steps do we do before FreeBSD 14 and which= before FreeBSD 15?

My vote would be to do 1-4 for= 14 including 2a.

After discuss= ing this offline and distilling the responses here, on IRC, etc, I'd li= ke to propose we do the following:

(1) Stop buildi= ng packages for armv6 entirely, on all branches. While there are some users= , they can still use poudriere to build package sets themselves. Usage data= suggests there's not enough demand for these packages.
(2) M= ove armv6 to an 'EXTRA' target in make universe (eg make universe E= XTRA_TARGETS=3Dt). Powerpc does this today with powerpcspe since it's n= ot completely supported in base. People that care can continue to build it = as part of universe and we'll fix things that are broken, reported to u= s and have patches that don't regress other platforms.
(3) Af= ter the stable/14 branch next May or June, we'll remove build support f= rom ports (very little) and src. We'll also start to tear down armv6 su= pport as we see it and are working in other areas, and expect that work to = be done before stable/15 is branched in a predicted 2025.
(4) Imm= ediately stop including armv6 -current snapshots as generated by re@.
=
(5) re@ won't create armv6 release images or artifacts for stable/= 14, 14.0, etc. Users wishing to build it can do so.

Oh, and #6: Demote armv6 (but not armv7) to tier= 3. It's been kinda de-facto there for a while anyway, and this will ma= ke the signalling clear that the runway for armv6 is running out.

As a reminder: this is only the original Raspberry Pi B and the origina= l Pi 0 models. Supported replacements for both of these are available from = Raspberry and other vendors.

Warner

=C2=A0
I've send e= mail to re@ asking about #4 and #5.

Warner
--0000000000001b264505efbab6e1--