From nobody Tue Dec 13 19:23:53 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4NWpMW0K96z4kZ1h for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 19:24:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4NWpMV0Dp1z4P1N for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 19:24:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.s=20210112 header.b="ZOvA/FJ7"; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::534) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com; dmarc=none Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id v8so19289151edi.3 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:24:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JxiWpZGIk1zUisPoiQdc0sc4kERS3fZ07x6pB5zLNnY=; b=ZOvA/FJ7oQFWPywsXc0c9vecRwWnWQJZ9mYzXJ5Un4VOGYqNSEAnXo77BJ65mdzZju +/y0SSZHxCqmVLNX0Wx+oDZJHieygQI2kccDqVLOdea5EHBvJ/zY8ukf4zPYSnXDYKX+ 7koxxZMsEUhO8KuxiHyz5kYmT4lWejnQe58SCs2fM3dN9CzzfHMYeXLGKGXjUZ6JTj8C xxyMnPn4iNo4IgCozzTmEZEbzESuUHitqSYYQTSvrFO6XbywsZ0liuZOF2s+3SbG/3e6 kdc5HaqfUhVKQTMz41Ggly70BeVmUWJYiNJiO0zrnXHDa/fTLZej8J/OuBgWVnU9S3Xm 1QWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JxiWpZGIk1zUisPoiQdc0sc4kERS3fZ07x6pB5zLNnY=; b=M+KykBJpHPJ2PfJ+lI0EnRs3mE+dTdnep3FZfU/pgde5dxux6BvI0ztcOs9hziLfEn t4JDbTJHqAUZQan0QsGmWJjkWYmyggBpmwCh+awxPqqPZ3p+C4PHBvQaRRbbG5bylz8l m8IxpiJs/akhtd94/0PGQSUINTUVPllpb/7SkIXRqQ7ajVl7lPSOkn/y21pMunfmkU9O szpRkEXwdBJ9J7ptEmHM/5ZIg5wTLDHEg2FIopF/A1xYyXZ1laAvYhZh2IBBgWY6CllZ gSFcDF+FpCaLniehvvQvFn0ieI2pLRVKWoXO4S0kRGC5bdJ7yGSv0qF0kzjIATd+Kgkf /Oeg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmSSv9jZc4mSTdpssh+JbH34IyqAiqG4NrXMyLSkIhBiSKXYI+4 D3YwxekNgmwgOstJUzRjyAIJsFwvbkTjOnhxq+RdqVhLu79BkQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf5GNYlG/vAdpJNxxxGwSUvz2ACTwlnYBtVsls+5ATIVuhb/TGgOM+Y/nIEaGOaWo/AXkFiYzuGwo1Cw0GnC+EU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1107:b0:463:9b53:cbf6 with SMTP id u7-20020a056402110700b004639b53cbf6mr79901229edv.173.1670959444715; Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:24:04 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:23:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 14: Poll armv6 deprecated or removed To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000022ffc605efba90fe" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:s=20210112]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::534:from]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4NWpMV0Dp1z4P1N X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000022ffc605efba90fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:48 AM Warner Losh wrote: > Sorry for the lag of a year, it's been a crazy time for me and this fell > through the cracks. > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 9:37 AM Warner Losh wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> Given that the number of available and useful armv6 boards has fallen to >> almost zero, the time has come to look hard at armv6. >> >> There's a number of options. >> >> 1. Keep it as is. This will only happen if there's a lot more users than >> we think (and we think there's nearly zero users of FreeBSD 13 and newer >> that would want to run FreeBSD 14). >> >> 2. Stop building packages. Given it's small to non-existent user base, it >> makes no sense to provide a package building service for it. >> 2a. We should likely do this anyway for all stable branches since it's a >> net negative in terms of cost/benefit analysis: lots of effort to produce, >> very little use. >> >> 3. Disconnect it from universe: This will mean it will rot, though. It's >> a necessary step in removal. >> >> 4. Remove support for armv6 in base entirely. This will orphan any RPiB >> and RPi0 users out there. However, the RPiB hasn't been sold in a few >> years, and the RPI0's connectivity is severely lacking given no SDIO >> support. >> >> So, which of these steps do we do before FreeBSD 14 and which before >> FreeBSD 15? >> >> My vote would be to do 1-4 for 14 including 2a. >> > > After discussing this offline and distilling the responses here, on IRC, > etc, I'd like to propose we do the following: > > (1) Stop building packages for armv6 entirely, on all branches. While > there are some users, they can still use poudriere to build package sets > themselves. Usage data suggests there's not enough demand for these > packages. > (2) Move armv6 to an 'EXTRA' target in make universe (eg make universe > EXTRA_TARGETS=t). Powerpc does this today with powerpcspe since it's not > completely supported in base. People that care can continue to build it as > part of universe and we'll fix things that are broken, reported to us and > have patches that don't regress other platforms. > (3) After the stable/14 branch next May or June, we'll remove build > support from ports (very little) and src. We'll also start to tear down > armv6 support as we see it and are working in other areas, and expect that > work to be done before stable/15 is branched in a predicted 2025. > (4) Immediately stop including armv6 -current snapshots as generated by re@ > . > (5) re@ won't create armv6 release images or artifacts for stable/14, > 14.0, etc. Users wishing to build it can do so. > Oh, and #6: Demote armv6 (but not armv7) to tier 3. It's been kinda de-facto there for a while anyway, and this will make the signalling clear that the runway for armv6 is running out. > I've send email to re@ asking about #4 and #5. > > Warner > --00000000000022ffc605efba90fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:48 AM Warn= er Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:=
Sorry for the lag of a year, it's been a crazy time for me and t= his fell through the cracks.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 9:37 AM Warner Losh &= lt;imp@bsdimp.com&g= t; wrote:
Greetings,

Given that the number of avail= able and useful armv6 boards has fallen to almost zero, the time has come t= o look hard at armv6.

There's a number of opti= ons.

1. Keep it as is. This will=C2=A0only happen = if there's a lot more users than we think (and we think=C2=A0there'= s nearly zero users of FreeBSD 13 and newer that would want to run FreeBSD = 14).

2. Stop building packages. Given it's sma= ll to non-existent user base, it makes no sense to provide a package buildi= ng service for it.
2a. We should likely do this anyway for all st= able branches since it's a net negative in terms of cost/benefit analys= is: lots of effort to produce, very little use.

3.= Disconnect it from universe: This will mean it will rot, though. It's = a necessary step in removal.

4. Remove support for= armv6 in base entirely. This will orphan any RPiB and RPi0 users out there= . However, the RPiB hasn't been sold in a few years, and the RPI0's= connectivity is severely=C2=A0lacking given no SDIO support.
So, which of these steps do we do before FreeBSD 14 and which b= efore FreeBSD 15?

My vote would be to do 1-4 for 1= 4 including 2a.

After discussin= g this offline and distilling the responses here, on IRC, etc, I'd like= to propose we do the following:

(1) Stop building= packages for armv6 entirely, on all branches. While there are some users, = they can still use poudriere to build package sets themselves. Usage data s= uggests there's not enough demand for these packages.
(2) Mov= e armv6 to an 'EXTRA' target in make universe (eg make universe EXT= RA_TARGETS=3Dt). Powerpc does this today with powerpcspe since it's not= completely supported in base. People that care can continue to build it as= part of universe and we'll fix things that are broken, reported to us = and have patches that don't regress other platforms.
(3) Afte= r the stable/14 branch next May or June, we'll remove build support fro= m ports (very little) and src. We'll also start to tear down armv6 supp= ort as we see it and are working in other areas, and expect that work to be= done before stable/15 is branched in a predicted 2025.
(4) Immed= iately stop including armv6 -current snapshots as generated by re@.
(5) re@ won't create armv6 release images or artifacts for stable/14= , 14.0, etc. Users wishing to build it can do so.

Oh, and #6: Demote armv6 (but not armv7) to tier 3= . It's been kinda de-facto there for a while anyway, and this will make= the signalling clear that the runway for armv6 is running out.
= =C2=A0
I've send email to re@ asking about= #4 and #5.

Warner
--00000000000022ffc605efba90fe--