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Fri, 21 Apr 2023 02:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_30CF1453-F239-4F7D-93DA-8769E1FEBE21" List-Id: FreeBSD accessibility discussions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-accessibility List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-accessibility@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-accessibility@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) Subject: Re: Terminal Reader and Text User Interface utilities From: Jon McLaughlin In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2023 00:22:03 -0600 Cc: freebsd-accessibility@freebsd.org Message-Id: References: To: Jon McLaughlin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.88 / 15.00]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[5]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.991]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[jpmrc.com:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.24:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-accessibility@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jpmrc.com: no valid DMARC record]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[jon]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[jpmrc.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29838, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[64.147.123.24:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Q2kvj2T4Yz3kjn X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --Apple-Mail=_30CF1453-F239-4F7D-93DA-8769E1FEBE21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 re-sending this response to the list since it went to Alfonso directly = on my first try but was meant as a general response. Hello, You might be thinking of two different scenarios. 1. A user is connected to the FreeBsd Machine via a terminal session. In = this case, you can assume they have a working screen reader already. The = standard type of config menus that FreeBSD uses(Blue boxes on some sort = of other background) Are rather hard for screen readers since the reader = has no clue what is important to read so it will read every character = that is a printing character on those dialogs(aka =E2=80=9CHorizontal = box drawing right=E2=80=9D for every character) In which case, an ultra = simple dialog system like you propose would be a good idea. You = wouldn=E2=80=99t even need whitespace in it since blind people do not = care if it is pretty. 2. A user connected at a terminal session In this case, I=E2=80=99d suggest looking at either BrlTTY since it has = built in speech or Fenrir for python. those two are already screen = readers and could use help.. a lot of it. Also, if you could brow-beat = someone into making BrlTTY not stutter on a Raspberry Pi 4, that would = be amazing. I hear the problem is something to do with there being 2 = running audio systems at the same time but I have never been able to = replicate the results from the tutorials I found. Once that can run = without annoyance, then look into the TUI being more accessible..=20 Also, you don=E2=80=99t need to be visually impaired to know how this = stuff works, just turn your monitor off or put a piece of cardboard over = the screen if you are on a laptop.. bonus, tape it down so you can=E2=80=99= t cheat s easily. Then try to edit a text file. Vim and Emacs are both = equally bad on the command line. Nano is passable but I prefer ed = because it doesn=E2=80=99t make the screen reader guess about what is = important. Good luck, let me know if you are talking about scenario 1 above because = I can test that easily. If it is the latter then I might be convinced to = reinstall FreeBSD on a spare machine. Best, Jon > On Apr 19, 2023, at 11:32 AM, Alfonso Sabato Siciliano = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I'd be happy to help to improve accessibility. I have some idea, = however > I would like to understand where to concentrate the effort and the = best > solution. >=20 > We have some utilities with a TUI (Text User Interface) to set up the > system. For example dialog4ports and portconfig to choose options for > building and installing ports [0]. >=20 > Let's say: > # cd /usr/ports/editor/vim > # make config | espeak >=20 > espeak-ng reads: escape characters that are sent to the terminal to > color fonts and other graphical stuff, chars used to draw borders and > lines (windows, buttons, etc). Another problem seems to be the > difficulty of selecting buttons and items in a checklist or radiolist, > this is the purpose of 'make config'; the problem is to understand > where is the focus or the cursor. >=20 > I am considering to implement a new utility with a CLI (Command Line > Interface) for the same purpose. Let's say, for the vim port the = output > could be: >=20 > # make config > vim port configuration > 1: print options, 2: save and exit, 3: close without saving > # 1 > Checklist with 2 items. > Make Jobs: Enable parallel build. Disabled > e: enable, c: continue > # c > NLS: Native Language Support. Enabled > d: disable, c: continue > # c > End List > 1: print options, 2: save and exit, 3: close without saving > # 2 > (Actually vim has more options, this is just a fake example.) >=20 > Can this new CLI utility be useful? Suggestions and feedbacks are > welcome. >=20 > Regards, > Alfonso >=20 > [0] https://www.freebsd.org/ports/ --Apple-Mail=_30CF1453-F239-4F7D-93DA-8769E1FEBE21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
re-sending this response to the list since it went to = Alfonso directly on my first try but was meant as a general = response.

Hello,
You might be thinking of two different = scenarios.

1. A user is connected to = the FreeBsd Machine via a terminal session. In this case, you can assume = they have a working screen reader already. The standard type of config = menus that FreeBSD uses(Blue boxes on some sort of other background) Are = rather hard for screen readers since the reader has  no clue what = is important to read so it will read every character that is a printing = character on those dialogs(aka =E2=80=9CHorizontal box drawing right=E2=80= =9D for every character) In which case, an ultra simple dialog system = like you propose would be a good idea. You wouldn=E2=80=99t even need = whitespace in it since blind people do not care if it is = pretty.

2. A user connected at a = terminal session
In this case, I=E2=80=99d suggest looking at = either BrlTTY since it has built in speech or Fenrir for python. those = two are already screen readers and could use help.. a lot of it. Also, = if you could brow-beat someone into making BrlTTY not stutter on a = Raspberry Pi 4, that would be amazing. I hear the problem is something = to do with there being 2 running audio systems at the same time but I = have never been able to replicate the results from the tutorials I = found. Once that can run without annoyance, then look into the TUI being = more accessible.. 


Also, you don=E2=80=99t need to be visually impaired = to know how this stuff works, just turn your monitor off or put a piece = of cardboard over the screen if you are on a laptop.. bonus, tape it = down so you can=E2=80=99t cheat s easily. Then try to edit a text file. = Vim and Emacs are both equally bad on the command line. Nano is passable = but I prefer ed because it doesn=E2=80=99t make the screen reader guess = about what is important.

Good = luck, let me know if you are talking about scenario 1 above because I = can test that easily. If it is the latter then I might be convinced to = reinstall FreeBSD  on a spare machine.

Best,
Jon




On Apr 19, 2023, at 11:32 AM, Alfonso Sabato Siciliano <alfix86@gmail.com> = wrote:

Hi all,

I'd be happy = to help to improve accessibility. I have some idea, however
I would like to understand where to concentrate the effort = and the best
solution.

We = have some utilities with a TUI (Text User Interface) to set up the
system. For example dialog4ports and portconfig to choose = options for
building and installing ports [0].

Let's say:
# cd = /usr/ports/editor/vim
# make config | espeak

espeak-ng reads: escape characters that are = sent to the terminal to
color fonts and other graphical = stuff, chars used to draw borders and
lines (windows, = buttons, etc). Another problem seems to be the
difficulty = of selecting buttons and items in a checklist or radiolist,
this is the purpose of 'make config'; the problem is to = understand
where is the focus or the cursor.

I am considering to implement a new utility = with a CLI (Command Line
Interface) for the same purpose. = Let's say, for the vim port the output
could be:

# make config
vim port = configuration
1: print options, 2: save and exit, 3: close = without saving
# 1
Checklist with 2 = items.
Make Jobs: Enable parallel build. Disabled
e: enable, c: continue
# c
NLS: = Native Language Support. Enabled
d: disable, c: = continue
# c
End List
1: print = options, 2: save and exit, 3: close without saving
# 2
(Actually vim has more options, this is just a fake = example.)

Can this new CLI utility be = useful? Suggestions and feedbacks are
welcome.

Regards,
Alfonso
[0] https://www.freebsd.org/ports/

= --Apple-Mail=_30CF1453-F239-4F7D-93DA-8769E1FEBE21--