From nobody Thu Oct 21 17:16:23 2021 X-Original-To: dev-commits-src-main@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7021812383 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:16:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound5c.ore.mailhop.org (outbound5c.ore.mailhop.org [54.244.192.240]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HZvKJ113Qz4sPG for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:16:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1634836589; cv=none; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=arc-outbound20181012; b=QQTJo8aIpalQhSXqU642oBFeMbU+/MrZuPmYpyYW7T5hioSq9e1nSDXuRi3W/m5FfD3aCUvqtPZX3 wUEVD4vWKQoOm9H5gNudSli8nwwi6zSeu/E1jPcB9+19QTfQvRCaR7wglv4FNbMm2npcP+I0k4s6kG DBGo6O4iBAUvagJchJqfZAbTovNaSQr9j402apOXZ6renKOO6Q54r+r+A+Sw046gYBlvXl+C+oC3tV e8mnMcMJTZiBnMuWCI3e7ufqbfEmvqoVNLUXjTJt+AgoicGSqaJCQ4TNhEuECILLGK2j5bm7zh3mJg 7+gvqy9Te6piIbdyFIQ+TenSuq1uW8w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=arc-outbound20181012; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:content-type:references:in-reply-to: date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:dkim-signature:from; bh=vU7aKlrLSvToiOF+SnfI/O+VbzkbkF/JstCSuvYTwv8=; b=e03zGjhUDIGqPP5Qv/yo6ObNYXJ1q7XX9hx2ctwm//tG5xUHd/Yp+6OvO3eQIFrSeypg2RAebNWk0 L1clWH56hhhXCNEJGSnAHCyXndIm7E/NNXYoMMQ91p2llDcD3BarnE9IFDbvL33ML0aE4zzcJQxtdl ceYMUbSolKqZZVA9AexBdlzhOvf/c3SLoYt4SowpN9hoJiyihQMlsyikHisgDGCU+dypFN6glFmK4a F2V6WA1Jr7/4gzG9+KJvbLjvdU52feYnvh+lyPmJCco5Cy1a/46KANTr5YWCXK667lzDHf2xBFNOPv 8VHiFWXJWSjMj0wNtZZAR0dqsVvT1xw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; outbound3.ore.mailhop.org; spf=softfail smtp.mailfrom=freebsd.org smtp.remote-ip=24.8.225.114; dmarc=none header.from=freebsd.org; arc=none header.oldest-pass=0; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=dkim-high; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:content-type:references:in-reply-to: date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:from; bh=vU7aKlrLSvToiOF+SnfI/O+VbzkbkF/JstCSuvYTwv8=; b=YQOus3qdszRu4W8j+H78NU9Xl9LItSJ1Gz3MsOOs2Ya/6vEWfdZMxOscgHwaTRrsBGy72Vmcw9oYT r/QQ9DMAXF2SGubhHdkiuZYr7lQdhfFaN4B+EeRaJ8MR7c7olTub2ZaaSBRSf6+rbwjNhV5f38PFO6 eGgNBetiqwNfVv+tP1wa7mJfVdLx+lUAgoK48QpaIvoBbdnMDXCMcBWR7PiSApQbZu3ja2BXB3zO4e jb9jmqi7TEFEiYFEnxichUIoxHhb1ye1a2z9LX6umO4j9S3ZNDIO1FLxXbvJAyFLiP1qeb0S4cVJpv wS5OS41gDoDu049W1KbJcqW+ILX8atA== X-Originating-IP: 24.8.225.114 X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: 9e3543af-3292-11ec-9e1e-bf9d68d023b6 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (c-24-8-225-114.hsd1.co.comcast.net [24.8.225.114]) by outbound3.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 9e3543af-3292-11ec-9e1e-bf9d68d023b6; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:16:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [172.22.42.84] (rev2.hippie.lan [172.22.42.84]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 19LHGNfw079281; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:16:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: paranoia.hippie.lan: Host rev2.hippie.lan [172.22.42.84] claimed to be [172.22.42.84] Message-ID: <5df6d661f6bbc4952398a1c6f1f2d6a36fae2cc2.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: git: 225639e7db68 - main - vt: Disable bell by default From: Ian Lepore To: Gleb Smirnoff , Emmanuel Vadot Cc: Slawa Olhovchenkov , src-committers@freebsd.org, dev-commits-src-all@freebsd.org, dev-commits-src-main@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:16:23 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <202110190738.19J7cFtw067994@gitrepo.freebsd.org> <20211019112132.GC80160@zxy.spb.ru> <20211019133700.77c0ca7ac488eb99df50551b@bidouilliste.com> <20211020095206.GA77338@zxy.spb.ru> <20211020134237.17596440e1fabda5d40f6985@bidouilliste.com> <20211021094000.58097dbece05fcd445aa3d87@bidouilliste.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" User-Agent: Evolution 3.40.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team List-Id: Commit messages for the main branch of the src repository List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/dev-commits-src-main List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-dev-commits-src-main@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: dev-commits-src-main@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4HZvKJ113Qz4sPG X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:54.244.128.0/17, country:US]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, 2021-10-21 at 10:10 -0700, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 09:40:00AM +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > E> > E> sane default that most users agrees on in base FreeBSD. If > you don't > E> > E> agree with the defaults we have a way to change them. > E> > > E> > To me this looks like abuse of committer priveleges. I got > commit bit, > E> > so I can change the defaults. > E> > E>  Oh common ... > > This is not the answer I'd like to hear. :( > > I'd rather hear why your opinion matters more than for example > Slawa's. > > E>  Except that FreeBSD doesn't include drm drivers or graphical env > by > E> default so the first thing that a user (new or not) have to deal > with > E> is vt(4). So they will login, do a bunch of command to configure > the > E> machine and will probably use tab for completion, and what will > they > E> hear when multiple commands are possible ? The bell. What will > they > E> hear if they try to go left or right in the shell and arrive at > one of > E> the ends ? The bell. And they will hear it in a bunch of other > E> situation. > > So the problem is that we are forcing people to go through painful > graphics setup, rather than in the bell. > > E>  Again it's clearly user preference and as you can see I really > hate > E> this bell. I'm sure that more people than the one who answered > this > E> commit like the bell but the question is do more people wants it > on be > E> default or not ? > E>  The non-scientific method that is twitter seems to agree with me > E> (https://twitter.com/FreeBSDHelp/status/1450955125002887170). > E>  So, do we really want to make a poll so users can vote on what to > do > E> with a freaking bell ??? > > Well, if you put it like that, I can compose a 100% symmetrical > answer: > > As you see I really LOVE the bell. And I'm looking forward to upgrade > my desktop past your commit and expecting my BELOVED bell to be > turned > off. Just like you, I hate idea of tweaking configuration, I want it > ON > by default as it used to be from the beginning of times. Unlike > Slawa, > I got commit bit, so I can go and turn it back on. > > So, yeah, looks like creating a poll about a precious bell could be a > solution of this dispute. > I can't believe this conversation is still going on. It's not 1983 anymore. We don't use TTY devices that simply stop and overwrite the last position on a line repeatedly if you write too many characters without a return, so we don't need an audible alarm to warn us of that condition. I agree 100% with whoever said earlier something like: POLA cannot be a reason for blocking every change. This change makes sense in the modern world. For the few people (and I'm sure it is a VERY few people) left who like the noise, there is an option to keep hearing it. Can we just move on? -- Ian