From nobody Thu May 22 21:57:27 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4b3MbS4BQVz5w0GY for ; Thu, 22 May 2025 21:57:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) Received: from plan-b.pwste.edu.pl (plan-b.pwste.edu.pl [IPv6:2001:678:618::40]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "plan-b.pwste.edu.pl", Issuer "GEANT OV RSA CA 4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4b3MbS0lnqz4KjH for ; Thu, 22 May 2025 21:57:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [192.168.7.70] (dom.potoki.eu [62.133.140.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by plan-b.pwste.edu.pl (8.18.1/8.17.2) with ESMTPSA id 54MLvRRl003540 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 22 May 2025 23:57:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=plan-b.pwste.edu.pl; s=plan-b-mailer; t=1747951048; bh=7IsJnrte8qM9ZPROWfIaap7FpT8xTSMcG7eYl/loP4E=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=bzLe/BWe9ir12Oc7HbqOklG8BA3pVvWysaO7gb+Ici4VGOW/URve/WndHDy5Nm5c0 rrFcA35qTFE0iVyKQU2b0TH+4jzavX7SQ/bbD5Z5sDn7fGL0mJ4fUK43ajc3TZBIsb tjIAkriHYIaaU7q44LMM+O90E3W7AfLUl6WRYJQ6tuNj/gfPHYfC69dSZgUu/nqoV7 Zh6mKhlmj3yXqIrYSvGmQ3UpCuXY5gNGj4gpmCKv6e1LVvCcEvzctSaV7QRbHkY0Jk LM1U6S7xCfHxMTxp//UzQMdAH5iEwBFpOiz4al/07xfloWgDIBcN3t9XZuLheJ5wOn ErahWWYsIcsfw== X-Authentication-Warning: plan-b.pwste.edu.pl: Host dom.potoki.eu [62.133.140.50] claimed to be [192.168.7.70] Message-ID: <1eb27b2a-c05a-470f-ba1b-6730e39cc1d8@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> Date: Thu, 22 May 2025 23:57:27 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: epair(4) To: "Patrick M. Hausen" , void Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20250515162552.9209B20E@slippy.cwsent.com> <20250515185919.87008219@slippy.cwsent.com> <45d0f49d-229b-46b4-af95-6e8c4c856661@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> <932111f8-f5ca-46d1-9f66-983f80f6116b@protected-networks.net> <8DCF0DAB-5EE5-4FEF-8CCC-1D7AF971BA8C@hausen.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Marek Zarychta Autocrypt: addr=zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl; keydata= xsBNBFfi3cMBCADLecMTFXad4uDXqv3eRuB4qJJ8G9tzzFezeRnnwxOsPdytW5ES2z1ibSrR IsiImx6+PTqrAmXpTInxAi7yiZGdSiONRI4CCxKY9d1YFiNYT/2WyNXCekm9x29YeIU7x0JB Llbz0f/9HC+styBIu2H+PY/X98Clzm110CS+n/b9l1AtiGxTiVFj7/uavYAKxH6LNWnbkuc5 v8EVNc7NkEcl5h7Z9X5NEtzDxTOiBIFQ/kOT7LAtkYUPo1lqLeOM2DtWSXTXQgXl0zJI4iP1 OAu4qQYm2nXwq4b2AH9peknelvnt1mpfgDCGSKnhc26q6ibTfMwydp+tvUtQIQYpA6b9ABEB AAHNN01hcmVrIFphcnljaHRhIChQbGFuLWIpIDx6YXJ5Y2h0YW1AcGxhbi1iLnB3c3RlLmVk dS5wbD7CwHcEEwEIACEFAlfi4LkCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQHZW8 vIFppoJXdgf8D9X3VRFSNaR9lthSx/+uqas17J3FJKBo1xMQsC2a+44vzNvYJSuPGLLJ+LW2 HPVazjP/BWZJbxOYpliY4zxNRU0YCp0BLIVLibc//yax+mE42FND/+NiIZhqJscl6MLPrSwo sIwXec4XYkldkyqW/xBbBYXoIkBqdKB9j5j42Npy1IV/RizOSdmvTWY27ir8e/yGMR1RLr4F 8P5K3OWTdlGy2H2F/3J8bIPBLG6FpaIyLQw4dHSx8V02PYqDxK1cNo2kAOnU8PnZL/AGuMOH iv3MN1VYL8ehcmpBBsrZGebQJxrjY2/5IaTSgp9xHYT70kshuU6Qb97vk1mOjNZxgc7ATQRX 4t3DAQgA10h6RCXuBLMHxq5B8X/ZIlj9sgLoeyfRdDZEc9rT2KUeUJVHDsbvOFf4/7F1ovWY hJbA6GK/LUZeHHTjnbZcH1uDYQeHly4UOLxeEvhGoz4JhS2C7JzN/uRnwbdOAUbJr8rUj/IY a7gk906rktsc/Ldrxrxh7O6WO0JCh2XO/p4pDfEwwB37g4xHprSab28ECYJ9JMbtA8Sy4M55 g3+GQ28FvSlGnx48OoGXU2BZdc1vZKSQmNOlikB+9/hDX8zdYWVfDaX1TLQ8Ib4+xTUmapza mV/bxIsaZRBw+jFjLQHhTbIMfPEU+4mxFDvTdbKPruKPqVf1ydgMnPZWngowdwARAQABwsBf BBgBCAAJBQJX4t3DAhsMAAoJEB2VvLyBaaaC6qkIAJs9sDPqrqW0bYoRfzY6XjDWQ59p9tJi v8aogxacQNCfAu+WkJ8PNVUtC1dlVcG5NnZ80gXzd1rc8ueIvXlvdanUt/jZd8jbb3gaDbK3 wh1yMCGBl/1fOJTyEGYv1CRojv97KK89KP5+r8x1P1iHcSrunlDNqGxTMydNCwBH23QcOM+m u4spKnJ/s0VRBkw3xoKBZfZza6fTQ4gTpAipjyk7ldOGBV+PvkKATdhK2yLwuWXhKbg/GRlD 1r5P0gxzSqfV4My+KJuc2EDcrqp1y0wOpE1m9iZqCcd0fup5f7HDsYlLWshr7NQl28f6+fQb sylq/j672BHXsdeqf/Ip9V4= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4b3MbS0lnqz4KjH X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:206006, ipnet:2001:678:618::/48, country:PL] X-Spamd-Bar: ---- W dniu 22.05.2025 o 23:06, Patrick M. Hausen pisze: > Hi all, > >> Am 22.05.2025 um 22:15 schrieb void : >> I think, from what other list members have written also, that many did as I did:- looked at the virtualization part of the handbook, found all what >> was required there to get started, and thats it. They would probably not >> (as I didn't) see the need to look at the advanced networking section if they >> were only using a bridge with bhyve or similar. > I have come to realise that there are two sides to this issue, both equally valid. > > How to configure and use if_bridge(4) correctly was documented from day one > or very shortly thereafter. > > But still - for reasons I do not quite understand - more than one platform/wrapper > development ignored that documentation. > > FreeNAS/TrueNAS surely did and from your posts I read that more jail/VM orchestration > tools also "do it wrong". > > So I agree - we cannot place the burden on the users with a: > > "The documentation was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a > disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.'" > > Which I am prone to do occasionally. Sorry about that. > > The technical discussion is simple. An IP address on a bridge member never > was supported and never will be. > > The change that is currently discussed simply prohibits a setup that never > was supported in the first place with the good intention to save people from > foot shooting. > > I support your suggestion to *somehow* make some more noise about that. > > I have been screaming at walls for years about the broken setup of bridges > in TrueNAS on the iX forum to no avail. Tickets in JIRA closed without action ... > Stuff like that. > > Kind regards, > Patrick > I think enough noise has been made. Regardless of its cause and intentions, this kind of noise isn't good for the FreeBSD community. I hadn’t planned to post further in this thread, but I’ve noticed the debate rising again like a phoenix from the ashes. Maybe it’s best to let it burn itself out. Now is the time to focus on more productive efforts - improving tools like vm-bhyve, helping users with migration paths, and making sure the documentation is consistent and accurately reflects the current state of affairs. Most importantly, there is a need to show the broader community (or at least not hide) that alternatives are available, such as ng_bridge(4), which allows for quickly setting up a network bridge for fast spinning up a bhyve VM for testing or running a VNET jail for short-term use. Cheers Marek