From nobody Thu Jun 05 16:20:26 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bCqS72SNGz5y3jZ; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 16:20:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bCqS65RCsz3pBt; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 16:20:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1749140438; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=e35CeMeCy8HlY8K9Eiqxi6a2wCA1Av85Sshuc1G9Tn4=; b=WDxG0Ia6lWa8DQpffhrS4aJFTj2w8PDiz8fGS3hJ6hCplpLjq/Onkicj6pYDbnbjpUI3Dl XsLjDwZHrLAuCpZ/vdwGNsRTbOYj3+dk4fZZabU+Wa0+ojKA/XVbIoCilWVQSn0xRbqngp JskX+3wRImagr7GV6mwRHyp3hi/EOboWMpXDLKu8H5tudWGuZ8EwOxB2ahOZ4hJuJ6+Fpb WsyF02mJnSeFRmTbpWDigjam81rl0lUeiY6enjxqdvl3q31hz9bkwqjURR1Pooi4HzMHoN ozmfjeguKUfSBb3Y0t3ir77iIG6083PlXJxlJUGZnFJA9BLCaE3S+czz2GGQmg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1749140438; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=e35CeMeCy8HlY8K9Eiqxi6a2wCA1Av85Sshuc1G9Tn4=; b=H5NAeQarLQoD0WNHWd4qxnGwGznADBFT+Y9xidM5/qBo+t7GxThPilxlSajtFwEdTUka6R 25pB1oewsKUGuvOYlj/Hv5pz2n4H1k5iMoMhUUz9sqAtQs2RzkelXPmfeQCduEgJCW/Yo/ KclLbQnYxEVTYlEl2I01SkWsUObrn9iFNt3BqMP0uVlEIgTNz4lbjYffjeoJ7OheTms6hh m+rpaA3L5LQrtVE9R34D3UyiUD0WDka15sqEhvPLKza+Dq7vyl+3Br1bc4uU9Ku62HhZqf R1Twyf1oUTnq8OzIe5VxeIU/QW2WOzcLrHlNtbeaRC9se9JPVpfYyHgt0I3q9w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1749140438; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=LAI1a1OWsoCQEAviCk0+4fiNFXZV3fmDIv+W8T168yHaZ6lt9u+pEjfSO6vYSrMJA1noNT tBmlkV0CSmA1UFVHDoWeH4327g7eJZhFvh3J+a4a56CD3HVDnr6koF6MItdB1JD5/SBwVw D0Sl0OZ96FtDjpIzRJSMK0sOLB7Q1no6wGpkAKYpCKkz6rtolDMSobf4xKygoXyl55XFx0 bH+BLzPjqxgu2N8rlxQMn1mIzf5MsRKBRPk86ccC7uEGalwy1J2AbA9wL9Tl4AjjH2Kkoi KaGumg/ux9YJK4lOG2G3IbeT+7va1AdjoAgGCYirApl2mITo5JZ7BnAsjloYvg== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bCqS64Phlz18G9; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 16:20:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A514F1102A; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 17:20:37 +0100 (BST) From: David Chisnall Message-Id: <81E0167A-7330-4C67-BEAA-074A7CA26E63@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CF10B8E4-2604-44FD-97A5-AF668087E08E" List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 17:20:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , wireless@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Stable ML , desktop@freebsd.org To: Warner Losh References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> <6803DF9A-5660-4F05-82CC-B4085584EF30@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) --Apple-Mail=_CF10B8E4-2604-44FD-97A5-AF668087E08E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 5 Jun 2025, at 15:59, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > Never going to happen. That's not possible today for any module at = all. We can't even do minor releases with anything complicated (though = some simpler drivers can work with sufficient effort). When did this stop being a guarantee that we at least tried to provide? = We used to go through structures and add padding in places we thought = might need changes before a major release, make things that modules = might use have explicit initialisation functions that would initialise = newly added fields, and so on. I thought KBI stability was something we promised during a major release = but it seems that now there=E2=80=99s an expectation that you recompile = all of your kernel modules every point release. The release engineering = docs still talk about KBI freezes for stable branches: = https://download.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/freebsd-releng/freebsd-releng= _en.pdf David --Apple-Mail=_CF10B8E4-2604-44FD-97A5-AF668087E08E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On 5 Jun 2025, = at 15:59, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

Never going to happen. That's not possible today for any module = at all. We can't even do minor releases with anything complicated = (though some simpler drivers can work with sufficient = effort).

When did this stop being = a guarantee that we at least tried to provide?  We used to go = through structures and add padding in places we thought might need = changes before a major release, make things that modules might use have = explicit initialisation functions that would initialise newly added = fields, and so on.

I thought KBI stability was = something we promised during a major release but it seems that now = there=E2=80=99s an expectation that you recompile all of your kernel = modules every point release.  The release engineering docs still = talk about KBI freezes for stable branches:


David

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= --Apple-Mail=_CF10B8E4-2604-44FD-97A5-AF668087E08E--