From nobody Thu Jun 05 10:25:16 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bCgZJ3fXcz5xbhp; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 10:25:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bCgZJ2xjDz3fsC; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 10:25:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1749119128; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=v5VDLXUIWi6XPjumdqMIL4iwZwTQzQPlWqclxu0pad4=; b=t/Kl+2Qji097QxeoGARqrmmf9JEV6bFttEnhPQWps5f29wfVoCmcx+de4ExV9TrPmDZgSj VDr8+wLyiL3tPr2BsczrPcirX6SBsIMu8u02HJRHJ2rzlHtg5Jj93h+pzvPyEnbdZ0yace Vq5UToa1/MMGVoRSqlm0Ou2cQdhGrUjBVM6LEh4Nocz2pdkGtAoEKX4AyOHGV2mW8MTh3n lnkbOlgtnIbV5CHyL3ViWpx3ZZQKIAv5naNnCfshnKYkqfVxzM2DWNSaeZq9vVGrTf/YeL bd1fapIU1L0dHMWMGNOMQ9iA75WpzJYtrZHLdUdKV5fFcdVzSoe4c1jXOM7WIg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1749119128; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=v5VDLXUIWi6XPjumdqMIL4iwZwTQzQPlWqclxu0pad4=; b=m4wSq5TwjFlJXhW421bIY+xlZMGdPmLVaWqtU+5NVg4O4tdIhLu9fr3r3jiAUxmxunJWoW GC1zJfOUM4xXckb+G01AgSibRa4wwaenrP8FSbMC04QSa8VIyp7FiSYpBOR+G2nI9DDc6h yhQ5EmoVEqHOOQE9et+CqdPO/fFLZlZfXeuRyThRIIp9p1TtMfG6y9nC9tQGoZw4XgNCXh aSlX7kjNXxpF9ua9inY3rXrZeR6T6Unc/G7pJjohITx40xgbteIXefDD9N3gA7eOalqNOn FSbeijWyY6JGtPYMZVWsfGwtseoRvKLKVZdkpHddfrt5anHPnKaM29itSsNPFg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1749119128; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ZzoTW2Mk2k37EdgYEp6W0AuWUGiQFrCsGuq64nW4KLZyM+pnXDvbqXhMpR3+aVchAJ3wJ9 DhvRExubIoMMLVVPvvHoEBXQ3gnjuHQDRIWbZ2XWfj2rHliWS9ZOGnD4qv0aflG4y/EYkI fHQCUcLhaFUugSz2w+IQYBN/xkdXJkVyT0Ku+udm3e/TAtJYRjK6XYgORyWdVXVdcZjdcO K9MwVuhK1MalIYApJbTaq5RVqsFyzLhLN5lF4aMWFejXQVlZ07Pq5DLNegSyZs1nTGlfAl p0PkmFLEJibGMW3VnNyDtjGEXf5XI2kr+O4l+7KazECFVR/lh6uSZhfjKTdUYA== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bCgZJ1ydCz11fw; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 10:25:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8571C11024; Thu, 05 Jun 2025 11:25:27 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: David Chisnall List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 11:25:16 +0100 Message-Id: <6803DF9A-5660-4F05-82CC-B4085584EF30@freebsd.org> References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> Cc: wireless@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org, desktop@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (22F76) Thanks, I always believe that our stability policies should be things that exist to i= mprove the experience of downstream folks, not sticks we beat ourselves with= . They should adapt with changing needs. The main issues with changing network ABIs come from jails. If ifconfig in a= 14.x jail doesn=E2=80=99t work in a 15.x jail, that=E2=80=99s a big problem= . I wouldn=E2=80=99t expect this to matter for the WiFi-specific parts. You=E2= =80=99re almost always configuring some virtual interface in a jail, not the= WiFi bits. I saw something fly past in phabricator recently for moving these to using n= vlists, is it likely that this will be done for 15 so 16 kernels will be abl= e to use userland tools from 15? I didn=E2=80=99t see how complete the patch= es were or if they touched the WiFi bits. On the KBI side, it would be nice if out-of-tree WiFi drivers could exist an= d work across a major release. It sounds as if they simply can=E2=80=99t use= fully exist at the moment (independent of KBI changes), but it would be nice= if that could be a goal for 16. David > On 4 Jun 2025, at 18:52, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHello, >=20 > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop >=20 > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We are facing a > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. >=20 > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches, > such as stable/15 then. >=20 > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at > that point) would stay there. The first release to ship anything major > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. >=20 > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. >=20 > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures. > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers, > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will address these > disruptions as they arise. >=20 > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community. > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. >=20 > Bjoern (on behalf of the Wireless Development Team) > Tom > Adrian > Ed > Joe >=20 > [1] https://www.freebsd.org/releng/ >=20 > -- > Bjoern A. Zeeb r15:7 >=20