From nobody Wed Jun 04 23:34:38 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bCP7Z3HWGz5xpHQ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 23:34:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bCP7Y30wFz3QWS; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 23:34:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (124-18-43-114.area1c.commufa.jp [124.18.43.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.18.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 554NYclM084550; Thu, 5 Jun 2025 08:34:39 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1749080079; bh=u5pYNhiEILdHiUDuNAcBLQgTRTASP4+zZSAxXPTsgq4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=THhSIH1n8DnGag00v0ZIcfC3WcghH2nbzk1SRY2JbhTNA6UbCA1no2stYJwVgxIwx TdVTO25hIq/rhmoOyrqXaF8w1w/RwfitDjFJILK1p/PLa2zL1TwwpPDD1p9Y+ot+OQ pVKCF10EyE/4iyVclPeDiZAsEX6CpPiC2wH/UVRQ= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 08:34:38 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Jan Bramkamp Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org, wireless+subscribe@freebsd.org, bz@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 Message-Id: <20250605083438.f3004e8724a7c39a3a3048a9@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <81d53b6a-dd89-4d53-986d-171cec48233f@rlwinm.de> References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> <81d53b6a-dd89-4d53-986d-171cec48233f@rlwinm.de> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.2) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bCP7Y30wFz3QWS X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[subscribe]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Thu, 5 Jun 2025 00:16:51 +0200 Jan Bramkamp wrote: > On 05.06.25 00:04, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57 PM Jan Bramkamp wrote: > > > > On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop > > > > > > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction.  We are facing a > > > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. > > > > > > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will > > inevitably > > > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > > > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable > > branches, > > > such as stable/15 then. > > > > > > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT > > (main at > > > that point) would stay there.  The first release to ship > > anything major > > > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. > > > > > > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution > > and we > > > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. > > > > > > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for > > inclusion > > > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code > > matures. > > > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, > > we may > > > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree > > drivers, > > > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets.  We will address these > > > disruptions as they arise. > > > > > > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the > > community. > > > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. > > > > > If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be > > best get > > stubs into the 15-stable ABI, +1 for this idea to minimize pains. Adding possibly-wanted things as stubs, placeholders a bit excessively would help for K"B"I/A"B"I stabilities while only additions using the stubs/placeholders are done, IMHO. And we can break K[P|B]I / A[P|B]I again on 16 to prune anything turned out to be unneeded and reorder things which harms to maintain codes and/or performances / efficiencies. > > but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable. > > > > Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network > > connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release > > notes. > > > > Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until > > the ABI stabilizes again? > > > > > > If you update userland and kernel at the same time, life will be good. > > It's only when you have skew that there's a problem.  So install both > > for src build, or update all the pkgbase packages at once. > > Are there neither WiFi driver kernel modules in ports nor any consumers > of the unstable ABIs (e.g. a WiFi manager other than the base system > wpa_supplicant)? Even if there's none just now, there's always possibilities in the future. ;-) Regards -- Tomoaki AOKI