From nobody Wed Jun 04 22:16:51 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bCMPf5237z5xjhn for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 22:16:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from crest@rlwinm.de) Received: from mail.rlwinm.de (mail.rlwinm.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:171:f902::5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bCMPd6sg0z3tjv for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 22:16:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from crest@rlwinm.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of crest@rlwinm.de designates 2a01:4f8:171:f902::5 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=crest@rlwinm.de; dmarc=none Received: from [IPV6:2001:9e8:962:4700:f5be:eac1:6030:8a77] (unknown [IPv6:2001:9e8:962:4700:f5be:eac1:6030:8a77]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (secp384r1) server-digest SHA384) (No client certificate requested) by mail.rlwinm.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BF8534977 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 22:16:52 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0ccgBOkG5qQnkke0LE6HZX3N" Message-ID: <81d53b6a-dd89-4d53-986d-171cec48233f@rlwinm.de> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 00:16:51 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> Content-Language: en-US From: Jan Bramkamp In-Reply-To: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.70 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[rlwinm.de]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bCMPd6sg0z3tjv X-Spamd-Bar: / This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0ccgBOkG5qQnkke0LE6HZX3N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 05.06.25 00:04, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57 PM Jan Bramkamp wrote: > > On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop > > > > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction.  We are facing a > > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. > > > > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will > inevitably > > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable > branches, > > such as stable/15 then. > > > > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT > (main at > > that point) would stay there.  The first release to ship > anything major > > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. > > > > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution > and we > > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. > > > > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for > inclusion > > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code > matures. > > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, > we may > > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree > drivers, > > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets.  We will address these > > disruptions as they arise. > > > > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the > community. > > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. > > > If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be > best get > stubs into the 15-stable ABI, > > but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable. > > Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network > connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release > notes. > > Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until > the ABI stabilizes again? > > > If you update userland and kernel at the same time, life will be good. > It's only when you have skew that there's a problem.  So install both > for src build, or update all the pkgbase packages at once. Are there neither WiFi driver kernel modules in ports nor any consumers of the unstable ABIs (e.g. a WiFi manager other than the base system wpa_supplicant)? --------------0ccgBOkG5qQnkke0LE6HZX3N Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 05.06.25 00:04, Warner Losh wrote:


On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57 PM Jan Bramkamp <crest@rlwinm.de> wrote:
On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop
>
> FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction.  We are facing a
> decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1].
>
> In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably
> break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces.
> By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches,
> such as stable/15 then.
>
> This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at
> that point) would stay there.  The first release to ship anything major
> beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1].
>
> After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we
> will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15.
>
> This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion
> in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures.
> However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may
> introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers,
> userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets.  We will address these
> disruptions as they arise.
>
> Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community.
> If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now.
>
If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be best get
stubs into the 15-stable ABI,

but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable.

Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network
connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release notes.

Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until
the ABI stabilizes again?

If you update userland and kernel at the same time, life will be good. It's only when you have skew that there's a problem.  So install both for src build, or update all the pkgbase packages at once.

Are there neither WiFi driver kernel modules in ports nor any consumers of the unstable ABIs (e.g. a WiFi manager other than the base system wpa_supplicant)?

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