From nobody Wed Jun 04 22:04:14 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bCM7J11b0z5xhxB for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 22:04:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bCM7H5NbKz3dFl for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 22:04:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-3122a63201bso324921a91.0 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1749074666; x=1749679466; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Lqi5j409+jbHT98eatkU4ouJNy+nSzKGvEcuaDY/T9Y=; b=XBq+aLdC7u7vto+fVPTass9VQPDJnmjaK5kluDIH7YDAIXKofqBO7iIsBYpQcz3QJB Py6i0H9dqOWCnPotKwQtrf8GxQObiwVq5xC3VVgLv4CVLn0cTzZ/rtbtUdEDDPy8pj2Z 5LoXUedwhPW+pJMX2SdK5s9rXIbXQy5DnzLs7XRpPtWJd/oVuj3GnfZZorsxfcZjfolb ZJ+Jj2cqW5vC48dzQQ/rvt6vQBI0GgDIOYWWNCFnbgzE4p37P3/lIOWxFK90klYKJT55 FFS6upmrRiI8vbL0egOU7K3ccTldMaPC4haCHbgJp0rDF9txZUCqAml1+9KbStXWoxQi DvmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1749074666; x=1749679466; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Lqi5j409+jbHT98eatkU4ouJNy+nSzKGvEcuaDY/T9Y=; b=pRwOaYEAMzn20p0Y3WcqkrBwmpx6N2QM5ZHth2yoMX/tEInXNYDb74x58NqszygYmj yHZBwGhbW1OuxyS43FI88b98y+ShaC1Qmw+9Ywec0Z5C1HZRGc98MIhtoNQb0ZiLlM24 Jbxw+scuSl+2/f/r5FsVt6QSeQ+87ZwQeRV26oAADFzNofgmpI7boJ/3F7xeL9DZ2buw KSpObIvef3BJy2C+1QQIlZGsCDdPQJtzperyit5myt6QP88sUQctpceAFvRqysSIJdq4 s+YZXc62DmwQ6gMIuB+ha9Y27hUOkQ9zigBOS4s0ivB60Pq9npbK0P9Bk1EvfLpeNNT0 A0Sg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxx9rjnDgsd/KHpYZHGIXKK1Ml7ejhjaMiyWJMkDShAETwui88B hlqamoyel5R59Jj6qz/nzWYwVxccLqxB5nu46Yanp3BmF0VkYegtvBsm8wsekCzqJ/45MUlJxx4 8L2rD/CIXGuiTTS+dQoJZxX4NzpHIaDxBQJyAPSo8HQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctf/tzhGlQt7nApAZg7hHuqSDzzzNlm09V1KdJpghnedhQ6td407+CnQe0C4vU OeJz0YgokPpAWWz8rbGBrH2wk6jikkbnRTmnOyE69mGb5kvsG/2G7JU2TN73SL/gINQE1P/lucl vYdVVso2IkRFaif9vHdWYyN5478Hsv0QKFTg9oJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGNiLB9pT/E3vo2kN0UIwfTxuD02JCIjcUep9mNBt3BxqcC7OxJHARHEeemLzSSSVTW3LAabU9W0m3ufkJFjQw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1c12:b0:311:af8c:51cd with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-3130cd97a39mr7300970a91.18.1749074666228; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 15:04:26 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:04:14 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFveUdBzarWyO5Y4D6KOtpG763jmyl9RNHoFv24Grd5xRlmywCNy2sh4bl4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 To: Jan Bramkamp Cc: FreeBSD Current Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002aa1c20636c62e92" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bCM7H5NbKz3dFl X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --0000000000002aa1c20636c62e92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57=E2=80=AFPM Jan Bramkamp wrote: > On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop > > > > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We are facing a > > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. > > > > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably > > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches, > > such as stable/15 then. > > > > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at > > that point) would stay there. The first release to ship anything major > > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. > > > > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we > > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. > > > > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion > > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures. > > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may > > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers, > > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will address these > > disruptions as they arise. > > > > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community. > > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. > > > If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be best get > stubs into the 15-stable ABI, > > but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable. > > Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network > connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release notes. > > Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until > the ABI stabilizes again? > If you update userland and kernel at the same time, life will be good. It's only when you have skew that there's a problem. So install both for src build, or update all the pkgbase packages at once. Warner > --0000000000002aa1c20636c62e92 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57=E2=80= =AFPM Jan Bramkamp <crest@rlwinm.de> wrote:
On 04.06.25 19:51, Bj= oern A. Zeeb wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop
>
> FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction.=C2=A0 We are facing a<= br> > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1].
>
> In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitabl= y
> break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces.
> By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable bran= ches,
> such as stable/15 then.
>
> This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at<= br> > that point) would stay there.=C2=A0 The first release to ship anything= major
> beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1].
>
> After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we<= br> > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. >
> This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion=
> in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures.=
> However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we ma= y
> introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers,<= br> > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets.=C2=A0 We will address these<= br> > disruptions as they arise.
>
> Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community= .
> If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now.
>
If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be best get stubs into the 15-stable ABI,

but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable.

Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network
connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release notes.
Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until
the ABI stabilizes again?

--0000000000002aa1c20636c62e92--